Do you think that Griffith kidnapping Casca was a correct move and was Miura's plan?
- Thread starter Ninja
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Parkus
Keep pushing no matter what
I can definitely see it that way as Griffith would want to keep the moonlight boy in check. It could've made for some interesting interactions with someone like Luca and perhaps Sonia.
It's just that it obviously wouldn't be done the way the continuation executed it and only Miura would be able to nail it so it wouldn't be so simple as a "damsel in distress".
With the way the Continuation has been portraying Guts, I think he's the damsel in distress in this context.
I think we need to wait for a "justification" for Why the kidnap happened?
If the justification is solid and consistent to characters motivations, *maybe* the kidnapping is consistent to Miura's vision.
Also, like others have said... It all depends upon the execution of the plot point. And I don't think anyone doubts here, that Miura would have nailed it.
If the justification is solid and consistent to characters motivations, *maybe* the kidnapping is consistent to Miura's vision.
Also, like others have said... It all depends upon the execution of the plot point. And I don't think anyone doubts here, that Miura would have nailed it.
It'd be premature for anyone to say with complete confidence whether or not Miura conveyed this specific idea to Kouji Mori. We don't know, and there hasn't been enough material released to see what her placement in Falconia will ultimately do for the story. It could be from Miura. But the execution of the idea gets in the way of the notion, so it's really hard to say.
I will say that it didn't feel right to me at the time. And 3 years later, it still feels like a weird (not simply surprising) turn of events. Because for more than 2 decades, Casca had effectively been sidelined from playing an active role in the story. But Miura had just completed the process of restoring her mind and had begun integrating her with Guts' group. And then, as the opening act of Studio Gaga's Berserk Continuation, she was immediately sidelined again. And while yes, her being near Griffith/her son serves a practical purpose, that sudden sidelining simply doesn't feel right to me. She went from non-lucid to lucid and then back to non-lucid again. ...Why?
It also feels very disconnected for Guts not to have spared her a single thought or mention since that event. When you add those things together, it really doesn't seem Mori had very much in mind for Casca when he began structuring the events of the continuation.
I will say that it didn't feel right to me at the time. And 3 years later, it still feels like a weird (not simply surprising) turn of events. Because for more than 2 decades, Casca had effectively been sidelined from playing an active role in the story. But Miura had just completed the process of restoring her mind and had begun integrating her with Guts' group. And then, as the opening act of Studio Gaga's Berserk Continuation, she was immediately sidelined again. And while yes, her being near Griffith/her son serves a practical purpose, that sudden sidelining simply doesn't feel right to me. She went from non-lucid to lucid and then back to non-lucid again. ...Why?
It also feels very disconnected for Guts not to have spared her a single thought or mention since that event. When you add those things together, it really doesn't seem Mori had very much in mind for Casca when he began structuring the events of the continuation.
It is a weird development for sure. The funny part is that if she weren't being sedated, Casca being in Falconia could actually lead to some interesting character interactions and plot threads, with people like Charlotte, Luca, and the apostles being there. Regardless, It's clear from his last few episodes that Miura had some great character development in mind for Casca. I doubt that he would have explored her as he did in his final chapters and then torn her away from the party and made her sedated and inactive until even later in the story. It's a very jarring 180.
It feels like another example of Mori wanting to move the story forward at any cost and sidelining the main characters because he doesn't really know how to write them. Kinda like how Guts has been mute, lying on the floor, chained up, thrown in some cell, and now locked inside some tree for the past three years.
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Beelzebud
[...] Into the abyss will I run [...]
My speculation is that at the end of the Skellig chapter Casca would indeed go away with Griffith to Falconia, with the right development it's even possible that she would be willing to do it like to protect the group and the boy. But it's all speculation and it's all we have now.
It was obviously a hollow event, there were no previous development leading to it neither any post dialogue or thought about it so it could be developed so it has a meaning other than sidelining yet another big character with the purpose of not risking with it(like Schierke, Guts, Puck and maybe everyone besides Daiba and Silat?).
Everything after this event is obviously made up, but I still have my doubts about this one. To me Mori and maybe some staff knew that "and at the end Casca goes to Falconia with Griffith" and that's all, what happens to her when she gets there or the others reaction to it was all made up for sure.
I believe it was. Miura wanted party to separate and the arc to end based on the interviews that i have read. That follows nicely. But whatever happen after that was simply not Miura's plan.
It didn't feel good to me either from a storytelling perspective. It's a big bummer because Casca just came back. Nor does she need to be in Falconia, there's plenty of other reasons to motivate the gang to go there.
I can't think of other instances where Miura did something and I thought it was a bummer. He always had very satisfying plot developments. But he could have been planning something cool that necessitated this arrangement.
I can't think of other instances where Miura did something and I thought it was a bummer. He always had very satisfying plot developments. But he could have been planning something cool that necessitated this arrangement.
TheItCrow
Knight without Title
I'm not seeing a scenario where Miura didn’t intend for Casca to be kidnapped there. It was just revealed that the boy and Femto share the same body; the cat’s out of the bag now. To keep the boy in check, Femto has to take control of Casca. The execution and the sidelining, of course, are a completely different story, but as far as the idea is concerned, I don’t see any other way. Casca needed time to cope with her trauma either way, and being around Guts wasn’t really an option. That process could have taken place in Falconia, alongside the other characters we already know there. Maybe even Rickert would have played a role there, him being at the hideout (and you know, not at the other end of the world).
Or, let me put it the other way around: if Casca hadn’t been kidnapped there, what were the other possibilities? Keep Griffith locked up every full moon?...
Or, let me put it the other way around: if Casca hadn’t been kidnapped there, what were the other possibilities? Keep Griffith locked up every full moon?...
Well reasoned, Crow. But I still think it wouldn't have happened this way.
Casca could have been abducted later down the line or she could have ventured to Falconia later on her own due to disagreement with Guts about how to handle the Griffith-Child situation. I don't think she would have been gone from the island just as we got her back. Besides, there were the Gurus, Danan, Skully, and others present to make it doubtful that Femto could have just picked her up and left so easily. Summarily, she needn't have been abducted from the island per se.
We also could have had a lot of interesting drama between Guts and Casca as they come to terms with what happened since the Eclipse, which would be denied if Casca left the island then and there.
But yeah, all in all, the Continuation's handling of everything is so muddled that I can't trust anything they have to tell us. I gave up on figuring out which ideas came from Miura and which didn't.
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TheItCrow
Knight without Title
Femto had already landed on the island and needed to escape regardless of whether he abducted Casca or not. It’s an interesting question to ask how easy that would have been, and whether taking Casca with him actually would have made things more difficult (you know, without having Zodd miraculously scoop in to fly him out). This also raises the question of whether the gnawers would have played the same role they did in the continuation (which I tend to think so, albeit not in the very same depiction).
I don’t think Guts would have left her side again after everything that happened on this topic. I could maybe see it happening if Casca just couldn’t be around him, but splitting them up again by their own decision? Meh...
Anyways, I’ll stick with the idea that this was part of Miura’s plan - if only because there’s no way the folks at Studio Gaga would have come up with that on their own.
Here's the relevant part of Miura's Exhibition video (fan translated, not by Puella): "The sort of arc where everyone formed a party and went on a journey is coming to an end, yeah. The story will take on a completely different form after that."
Nothing in that line relates to what happened to Casca, and I don't think he meant the group would break up, either. The preceding story helped formulate Guts' group, and they had their adventure (to Skellig). But what actually happens next wasn't made clear, just that it would be different.
Just because that's where the continuation team took the story doesn't mean it was the only way. What we got was actually a very messy fix for Griffith's inconvenient "time of the month." And it unfortunately came at the expense of Casca's immediate need to resolve her trauma.
Mess #1: It's a bad trade for Casca's development:
Holding Casca in captivity by apostles and the one who induced her nightmare isn't going to advance her healing process. Previously, she was surrounded by her friends who were supporting her, along with the world's best healer. And yes, Guts being a trigger for her memories was a problem, but it didn't seem insurmountable. They just had to build a bridge (together). That's what was immediately in the cards back in Skellig But presently, there's no resolution in sight for Casca.
Mess #2: Putting your ex, your teen fling, and your wife in the same place is a bad idea:
Obviously I'm being a little colorful for laughs, but placing Casca in such close proximity to Sonia and Charlotte has the potential to wreck Griffith's serene arrangement with his fiancee and someone he relies on both in battle and for soul-speaking. Sonia has every reason to be curious about Casca. Once that door is opened, Casca's experience with Griffith becomes a loaded gun, and Sonia is someone who has been shown to be fully capable of pulling the trigger by tapping into her mind. When that gun is fired, if the Sonia-Griffith breakup alone isn't damaging enough, then the most obvious recipient of the shot is Charlotte. Any of those results are such obvious blunders for the supreme god-king that it would be ridiculous...
Mess #3: We're assuming the kid is totally cool with the parental separation arrangement:
To be clear, this is not even a good resolution for Griffith's inability to control his kidsona. It presumes the boy will be totally cool with keeping mom and dad apart. And while I can't guarantee anything (because this is the continuation and who the fuck knows what they'll do), I can't imagine the boy will simply bury his head in mama's lap and suck his thumb the rest of the series. He cares for Guts too, and he'll want his parents to be together.
TheItCrow
Knight without Title
Damn, I didn't even know of that! Guess I should read the exhibition threads.
In my head, Griffith used the fact that he had captured Casca as leverage to keep the boy in check: “Cause trouble while it’s your turn, and I’ll hurt your mother. I have her now.”
But I see your other points, yeah. Though I'm curious:
do you have any other ways in mind?
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Sure, I've got a pretty good scenario in mind that ends with Casca still on the island, Griffith flying off, and Guts still defeated enough to induce a crisis. But I'd rather not derail this thread. I'll make my own thread on it one day.
Sonia is a literal child, and he has never had a romantic relationship with her. He views himself as a father figure to her. Grouping her with Casca and Charlotte as a potential romantic partner is not accurate at all.
Either I was too colorful or you're just colorblind, because calling Sonia a "teen fling" was a joke, dude—I even said so!
But if that's all you took from my post, then I guess you simply can't understand the danger of having Sonia's mind-reading and broadcasting capability within range of a mentally unstable Casca and Griffith's fiancee.
plz do! I will want to read it!
And have my ideas be misconstrued again? Yeah, can't wait...
It's impossible to find the grains of Miura within this pile of excrement. While one can assume that the first six episodes of the continuation were the most accurate to his vision, they contain the biggest violations to his lore and worldbuilding. Violations so gross that whatever credibility Mori and Studio Gaga had was completely destroyed. We know the elves and merrow, including Isma, weren't going to up and vanish because their existences weren't tied to Danan's tree (and that's not how spirit trees worked anyway). We know the witches weren't going to lose their powers because their magic wasn't tied to the tree either (and it's not how magic works). Which means we know we weren't going to have some silly plot where every human on this island crams themselves into one tiny ship to escape, where they would eventually be raided by the Bakiraka and brought to the Kushan city they live in (which we also know wouldn't happen because the Bakiraka's hideout wasn't a major city, it was a hidden remote village). With all these erroneous developments piled one on top of the other, how are we supposed to buy into the idea that Griffith kidnapping Casca was the one thing they got right?
Honestly, at this point, I think it was just used as a means to functionally write her out of the story. Just like what was done to Isma, and the merrow, and the elves, and Danan. And in a way, Guts too. Mori and Studio Gaga have no idea how to write these characters, so they don't bother, and they'll twist the story into knots to ensure they don't have to. Is it any coincidence that they seem to be so in love with the Kushan characters, who are the ones doing most of the talking and driving most of the story forward (in whatever miniscule steps they are).
Honestly, at this point, I think it was just used as a means to functionally write her out of the story. Just like what was done to Isma, and the merrow, and the elves, and Danan. And in a way, Guts too. Mori and Studio Gaga have no idea how to write these characters, so they don't bother, and they'll twist the story into knots to ensure they don't have to. Is it any coincidence that they seem to be so in love with the Kushan characters, who are the ones doing most of the talking and driving most of the story forward (in whatever miniscule steps they are).
This is medieval time we are talking about. With the literal "Pope" on his side, I doubt it will present any issues in optics. Managing home affairs is a different beast altogether. That being said, this is Femto we are talking about... the literal evil incarnate. I think the "living arrangement" might have been planned better... but then again, who knows, the very same might have been seeds of his down fall. Femto kind of treats Guts way less significant than he really is. I doubt his attitude towards Casca would be any different. Possibly to his own detriment...
I, however, do believe the exact manner in which Femto is to keep Casca captured is not Miura's idea but separating her and Guts and even abduction feels like Miura. And if anything that can shake Guts, it would have been this second separation of Casca from him after Eclipse. I mean after Conviction Tower, he had made a goal to keep her near himself. That being said, I believe that the team has overplayed shaking of Guts into full blown erasure of his charecter because of their own inabilities to work him.
Well, Femto's presence in the paradise was always going to lead to a paradise lost scenario. The last episode done by Miura, to me, feels that it was leading in that direction. The big bad has shown up, a confrontation is about to happen and we know that Guts is still not strong enough to take down a literal God hand, given how ridiculously power GH members are. So logically, showing up of GH there will lead to disappointment and even existential threat to Guts. Besides, GH and Femto are on a mission to wipe out anyone with magical abilities for their own plan.
Now if paradise lost kind of sceanario is to follow, it makes sense that it leads to a temporary separation of party members and they will be reunited again after some kind of spiritual journey of the lead. You know, the entire FF-III/VI pattern. Though the way Mori et al did it feels ridiculous. The greatness of Miura had been in giving a totally new twist to existing patterns and even subverting them. So yeah that is missing surely.
My god, I wasn't talking about optics. I've explained it twice, but here's a third try. And this time I won't use jokes or metaphors:
Sonia, a mind-reader who can also project her thoughts,is a dangerous element to have close to Casca (who was brutally raped by Griffith) and Charlotte (to whom Griffith is engaged), all of whom are in the palace of Falconia at the same time.
By bringing Casca to Falconia, Studio Gaga basically have to pursue this idea now, even though it's such an obvious blunder for Griffith. It would be wasteful storytelling-wise not to explore those character interactions, because of their shared interest/history in Griffith. And that should have consequences, which Griffith should have realized was possible.
Here's just one scenario to demonstrate why they're likely to cross paths: Casca visited the orphanage that Charlotte was saying they should build back in Ep 358 (making it effectively her orphanage). Charlotte could have been one room away at any point. And when she sees Casca, she's going to remember her, which will lead to questions, and should lead to issues for Griffith among these ladies.
That feels like hindsight bias, to me. We now know Griffith's arrival resulted in the island sinking, but that wasn't a foregone conclusion when he first appeared. There were other possibiltiies that didn't end with island_nuke.exe.
Of the most powerful people on the island at that time, Guts may have been the least capable one of dealing with Griffith. And we didn't get to see what they could do.
That was the plan when the apostles were hunting Flora specifically. We don't know about a wider campaign to kill all magic users (particularly by the God Hand at large). Besides, they already brought about Fantasia.
You originally had said "Miura wanted party to separate," which I explained wasn't true. Instead, you extrapolated from the scenario. And that's fine, but let's not sow confusion by saying that came from Miura when it came from you thinking through possibilities.
Sure, it is one way he could have done it.
But we will never know if this is what he would have done with the story.
He could have changed his idea in the process.
One thing would probably (probably) happen though.
IF he chose this path of Griffith capturing Casca...
Guts would have fought better than that, and Skull Knight wouldn't merely try to fight those "dark slimes" (or whatever you wanna call it), he would try stand and 1) attack Griffith 2) attack Zodd.
But with the way Studio Gaga have done those episodes?
No, I definitely don't think that would happen with Miura.
In the end it doesn't matter.
We will never get a clear answer to these questions.
But we will never know if this is what he would have done with the story.
He could have changed his idea in the process.
One thing would probably (probably) happen though.
IF he chose this path of Griffith capturing Casca...
Guts would have fought better than that, and Skull Knight wouldn't merely try to fight those "dark slimes" (or whatever you wanna call it), he would try stand and 1) attack Griffith 2) attack Zodd.
But with the way Studio Gaga have done those episodes?
No, I definitely don't think that would happen with Miura.
In the end it doesn't matter.
We will never get a clear answer to these questions.