Episode 382

[Jeremy Robinson]

I'm torn on the issue of the sequel to Miura-sensei's truly astounding Berserk manga.
Do I want to see a continuation of Berserk without Kentaro Miura?
No.
The really sad thing is that a great artist died too early.
I still haven't got over Kentaro Miura's death.
But... I'm also intrigued to see how the Berserk Sequel will play out - even if the latest episodes seem to be going nowhere, even if so many characters are short-changed (Guts especially), or simply swept off the board, and even if the art is awful in too many places.

 

[Introspective narcissist]

The continuation keeps being hard to digest, primarily because it's difficult to decipher the actual Miura plot points and secondarily due to the awful execution. For example the Kushan capital being invaded by trolls and the Rakshas part is probably all made-up by Studio Gaga but this stupa stuff might be a Miura's idea after all, due to how the tomb is portrayed. The imagery of the tree and the roots, the round, almost egg-shaped tomb, and the fact it is located "at the end of the world" intertwine with many elements from before the continuation. What I don't understand is the role Silat and Daiba would have had in the original vision. Studio Gaga is using them as agents to advance the plot because the party (and apparently every other character on-screen) would be quite clueless without them. Very convenient choice, but also upsetting because at this point they are literally hand-holding the story, while the rest of the characters just watch or endure their decisions. I'm not even sure they should be in Kushan lands, when Miura estabilished the mountain village which is probably never going to be addressed. I would also like some bits on Kushan sorcery/worldview and how it differs from Elfhelm's one (are their "taboos" the same?) but I doubt we're getting anything of substance.

You dont even know how right you are, you have good eyes.
The stupa is a symbolic representation fo the buddha's being. The central pillar in the stupa is something called the SOKSHING or THE TREE OF LIFE, meaning that, that tree on top of the stupa is not coincidental, but has the same potential as the one in elfhelm, in flora's mansion and the world spiral tree.
On top of that, the dome of the stupa is called an Anda, which literally translates to EGG.
The Stupa, is supposed to start to function when a postivie and powerful wish is channeled through it.

As for the dead Harshada's near the Stupa premises, it vaguely(and I could be wrong) suggests a japanese/Chinese buddhist practice called Sokushinbutsu - wherein a monk would entomb himself(not in a stupa), to achieve enlightenment in their current body itself. The success or failure of their enlightenment is judged by if the dead body underwent decay or not. If it decayed, then the monk failed in his task.
So, the dead harshada's are very likely failed attempts made inside the Stupa.

Also, this is the first time that the 3 major symbols in berserk - the spirit tree, the egg/behelit, and the sacrifice brand, have appeared together, (not in the exact form, but it is an appearance nonetheless) in one ritual.

So yeah, i think it is very likely that it was Miura's idea.

I did a video on the significance of the Stupa. I'm not going to plug it here however.

 

[Aazealh]

i think it is very likely that it was Miura's idea.

It can't possibly be "Miura's idea" because the scenario leading up to it could only be achieved by disregarding key established facts of the story, like Fantasia. Futhermore, its design is nonsensical: a dead tree atop a building with very long roots that barely reach soil at their tips. That is not a mistake Miura would make.

 

[Introspective narcissist]

It can't possibly be "Miura's idea" because the scenario leading up to it could only be achieved by disregarding key established facts of the story, like Fantasia. Futhermore, its design is nonsensical: a dead tree atop a building with very long roots that barely reach soil at their tips. That is not a mistake Miura would make.

I said it is very LIKELY that it is Miura's idea, and not that IT IS his idea.
Its design looks to be a combination of various versions of buddhism across asia. Domed stupa's typically are huge, and house relics. You cant go inside it, but are supposed to walk around it in a certain direction. A pagoda is another version of the stupa, and is huge as well. In the pagoda i have personally been to, only higher levels of meditators are let into the central dome. So you can see its function as a place for deep reflection and meditation.

It's design is not nonsenscial, you just dont understand it.
The tree in the chapter 382 is dead because it hasnt yet started to function. The tree of life and egg are fundamental aspects of the stupa. A positive, powerful wish is channeled inside it to make it start to function.
I suspect by the end of it, when Guts comes out, the tree atop the stupa will bloom.

 

[Aazealh]

I said it is very LIKELY that it is Miura's idea, and not that IT IS his idea.

And I'm telling you it's very unlikely to be his idea, and gave you clear reasons why that's the case. Not sure what your point is.

It's design is not nonsenscial, you just dont understand it.

No, I understand it perfectly, and it is nonsensical for the reason I mentioned.

The tree in the chapter 382 is dead because it hasnt yet started to function. The tree of life and egg are fundamental aspects of the stupa. A positive, powerful wish is channeled inside it to make it start to function.
I suspect by the end of it, when Guts comes out, the tree atop the stupa will bloom.

I mean, that tree is not just broken at the base but hollowed out as well.

Also it's "episode 382", just so you know.

 

[Introspective narcissist]

And I'm telling you it's very unlikely to be his idea, and gave you clear reasons why that's the case. Not sure what your point is.



No, I understand it perfectly, and it is nonsensical for the reason I mentioned.



I mean, that tree is not just broken at the base but hollowed out as well.

Also it's "episode 382", just so you know.

- You can tell me that, but the three major symbols in berserk are appearing together in this stupa, two of those symbols(the tree of life and the egg) are provided by the stupa. Such layered symbolism can be miura's handiwork. Though we cant know for certain, since the man is no more.

- You can look up the components of the stupa yourself and see that the tree of life and egg are essential aspects of it. By how the stupa is supposed to start to function, which you can also look up, you can see why the tree is as it is now, and how it may be when it starts to function.

This is all speculation however, but the symbols fundamental to the stupa resonate with berserk, so it is likely Miura's idea shown in chapter 382.

 

[Kaine]

I want to end this post with a warning to fellow fans of Berserk. Be vigilant. Do not get used to this bastardized continuation to the story, to these deformed, mutilated versions of the characters. Don't let them ruin your perception of Berserk, the real Berserk that Kentarou Miura created. I say that because I think with enough exposure over enough time, the Continuation really could twist someone’s perception of the series.

Honestly I don't think this is even remotely possible, as my brain refuse to assimilate the continuation episodes....
I think this is/will be the case for all the people that actually liked Berserk, as the difference between Miura work and Gaga/Mori one is the same as night and day.
For me the people that they are unable to understand were Miura work ends and where the continuation one starts are just sheeps and in the long run Miura work will be probably studied in schools while the continuation one will be remembered as one of the worst ways to continue the work of a dead artist

 

[Aazealh]

You can tell me that, but the three major symbols in berserk are appearing together in this stupa, two of those symbols(the tree of life and the egg) are provided by the stupa. Such layered symbolism can be miura's handiwork. Though we cant know for certain, since the man is no more.

Nowhere is it established that there are "three major symbols" in Berserk, this is an arbitrary distinction you came up with and it is meaningless. More importantly, that's unrelated to what I'm saying, which is that this entire scenario is the result of the Continuation team's blatant disregard for what Miura had established for the story. Because Miura surely did not intend to contradict what he had just set up himself, it is clear this scenario cannot be from him.

In Miura's Berserk, Falconia is mankind's last bastion and other countries have been ravaged following the advent of Fantasia. There is no Kushan empire left, and Rickert, Silat and Daiba have not traversed the world to get to that empire's capital city since we were told they were going to the Bakiraka's hideout. That makes this scenario impossible. And these are just basic facts, I could keep going for an hour.

You can look up the components of the stupa yourself and see that the tree of life and egg are essential aspects of it. By how the stupa is supposed to start to function, which you can also look up, you can see why the tree is as it is now, and how it may be when it starts to function.

Look I appreciate that you have checked the Wikipedia page for Stūpa, I really do, but that's not what I'm talking about here. The "tree of life" you keep mentioning is a pole that's inside the structure, on which mantras are affixed. It's not an actual tree. And what's on top is a chatra, a sort of umbrella that symbolizes holiness. The dead tree that's atop the stūpa in this episode stands in place of the chatra. But my point is unrelated to any of this: it's about the fact the tree couldn't possibly have grown like it did. It's a bad design, and that is proof that Kentarou Miura did not come up with it.

Honestly I don't think this is even remotely possible, as my brain refuse to assimilate the continuation episodes....
I think this is/will be the case for all the people that actually liked Berserk, as the difference between Miura work and Gaga/Mori one is the same as night and day.
For me the people that they are unable to understand were Miura work ends and where the continuation one starts are just sheeps and in the long run Miura work will be probably studied in schools while the continuation one will be remembered as one of the worst ways to continue the work of a dead artist

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think it's a good take. I wrote that because I've already seen how the Continuation is affecting people's thinking when it comes to the series and what Miura might have had in store for the characters. And that's on this forum, where we made the deliberate decision to keep discussions of the two separate and to systematically label them differently. So even if it's not the case for you as a hardcore fan, it doesn't mean you should disregard the risk.

Also, because Hakusensha chose to call this Berserk and to keep it going as if nothing had changed, by default everyone will treat it as if it's the same thing. That's just the way it is. Dismissing it as people being stupid isn't helpful, even if it's true. It reminds me of @Rorschach's post earlier, saying that Miura's legacy isn't being tarnished. That's wrong. It absolutely is being tarnished, because the majority of people aren't going to make the difference between his work and what followed.

It doesn't matter if his work is actually pristine and it's others that are shitting all over it, because the general perception of it will still be diminished. In that context, just saying you're a better fan isn't productive. I think we're going to need to work to ensure there's as little damage to his legacy as possible. It's not something that'll be achieved magically, without anyone making any effort. If you want Miura to be studied in schools, you'll have to work towards making it so. It goes for all of us. It's going to be a long and bitter journey.

 

[scaler26]

Also, because Hakusensha chose to call this Berserk and to keep it going as if nothing had changed, by default everyone will treat it as if it's the same thing.

I felt this with something I saw yesterday; it was yet another post along the lines of "does anyone else dislike the art style change in the latter half of Fantasia", like (too many) others since Miura switched to digital. Except they included a page from the continuation mixed with Miura's work... It was a small thing, but it rubbed me the wrong way, a reminder that some folk don't care enough to make the distinction, which is easy to forget if you mostly hang around in this forum.

 

[Yoshi]

I personally don't think it's possible that Guts is in a Stupa either, but I've been meaning to ask Skull Knight about the possibility of Guts becoming an apostle after episodes 380 and 382 now that he's more open to the idea of death. Perhaps he will be on the brink of death or suicide and his behelit would activate. What if he takes up the God Hand's offer to become an apostle? It would technically bring him closer to Griffith and Casca if this happened. It would likely also be the easiest way for Guts to get a power up, and it would probably also give him the highest boost in power out of all the potential options too (mastering the Beast Of Darkness, fusing his behelit with the Dragon Slayer, etc). Technically Guts becoming an apostle has been teased throughout the entire Manga too since it's been teased as far back as the end of the Black Swordsman Arc.

 

[Aazealh]

I've been meaning to ask Skull Knight about the possibility of Guts becoming an apostle

Guts will never become an apostle. It wouldn't make sense and it wouldn't achieve anything. First off, it would go squarely against his character. He hates the apostles and the God Hand. Becoming one of them would be a denial of everything he stands for. Second, it would be pointless. Apostles cannot oppose the God Hand, it's against their very nature. The one apostle who did it, Ganishka, ended up being a pawn in a game that he didn't even realize was going on. Guts would achieve nothing by doing so. And third, if he were to sacrifice someone, it would have to be Casca, and Casca is already branded and cannot be sacrificed again. So that couldn't work anyway.

What if he takes up the God Hand's offer to become an apostle?

The God Hand doesn't decide who becomes an apostle or not, and they haven't made any offer to Guts. Slan has teased him about it, but it was just that: teasing. Similarly, Guts cannot just decide to become an apostle, it doesn't work like that. It's the God of the Abyss that engineers such things.

fusing his behelit with the Dragon Slayer

No offense but I cannot believe people seriously entertain this dumb idea. Truly one of the stupidest things anyone has ever come up with for Berserk.

 

[Lawliet]

Technically Guts becoming an apostle has been teased throughout the entire Manga too since it's been teased as far back as the end of the Black Swordsman Arc.

How was it teased exactly? All you have to do is to refer to Vol 3, where Guts was described as one who isn't "ordained by causality" in response to Slan's saying "if only he could become a demon" - as in, becoming an apostle isn't in the cards for him. It's not even so much as a possibility, let alone a probability.

There's also all the stuff Aaz said above. All true. And Guts becoming an apostle would also make a mockery of the manga's central theme: human endurance, which Guts the Struggler embodies. Apostles are the antithesis of human endurance, as they're broken humans who took the easy way out and became monsters.

 

[Yoshi]

And Guts becoming an apostle would also make a mockery of the manga's central theme: human endurance, which Guts the Struggler embodies. Apostles are the antithesis of human endurance, as they're broken humans who took the easy way out and because monsters.

I actually agree with what you and Aaz are arguing over for the most part. It's just that the continuation already broke the central theme of Berserk to an extent when they made Guts accept death in episodes 380 and 382. That's the main reason why I asked that question.

 

[Aazealh]

It's just that the continuation already broke the central theme of Berserk to an extent when they made Guts accept death in episodes 380 and 382. That's the main reason why I asked that question.

Well here's the thing: whoever's writing the Continuation is neither very creative nor very bold. They tend to go for lame, anticlimactic and rushed developments that often rely on poorly reusing previous elements from the series. If it were just a matter of going directly against the established facts of the story, I would agree that Guts becoming an apostle is on the table. But I think that's way too ambitious for them.

It's anyone's guess what they'll do next, but if I had to speculate I'd imagine it more along the lines of Guts lying around in his own filth some more, then some incoherent, half-assed self-searching, and finally a 'meant-to-be-badass-but-actually-lame' resolution like Guts opening the Stūpa by himself. "Wow, such strength!"

 

[Wyld Dreams]

So yeah, i think it is very likely that it was Miura's idea.

I do not believe Miura will make Guts go into broken BSOD and entomb him in a Stupa. Thats quite antithesis of Guts and his story as a life-long struggler. If he EVER (and very hypothetically speaking) had planned that, it would be with very strong reasons and nothing like "My sword cannot cut Femto". This is the same person who carried Casca with him when there was no hope of her regaining her sanity. Guts is a Berserker not a subdued depressed. That alone makes it "not Miura's idea".

The stupa is a symbolic representation fo the buddha's being. The central pillar in the stupa is something called the SOKSHING or THE TREE OF LIFE, meaning that, that tree on top of the stupa is not coincidental, but has the same potential as the one in elfhelm, in flora's mansion and the world spiral tree.

Most humbly, I do not think this is how Berserk works. Berserk takes motifs from real world but does not picks up entire ideas on a wholesale basis. Miura's visual story telling uses visual elements to convey ideas by (among other things) juxtapositioning contrasting motifs from real-world. Like Kushan is eastern while Midland, HolySee etc are western. Their visual elements in the story strongly suggest that and show how different they are.

But what does not happen in Berserk is that Miura lifts an entire real world idea like Buddhism and just transplant it like that. Miura builds his own world completely. Even concepts like Jyanin, Paramarisha, Kshatirya, Harshada, Kudlini etc which are used by him are not simple copy paste of real world ideas. I will not even call it a deep inspiration as well, they are mostly motifs from the real world with story and world building completely of Miura.

Continuation has this habit of lifting ill fitting real-world concepts and bringing them into Berserk. Miura is very careful about divorcing real world from fantasy. I deeply admire him for that.

but I've been meaning to ask Skull Knight about the possibility of Guts becoming an apostle after episodes 380 and 382 now that he's more open to the idea of death.

Again, Guts becoming an apostle is same as Guts acknowledging God Hand's rule over himself. Apostles are apostles of God of Abyss and God Hand sent on a mission : To do what they will but with a hidden clause that their will is bent or subordinate to God Hand. If Guts become an apostle, he surrenders to Femto. The End.

It's anyone's guess what they'll do next, but if I had to speculate I'd imagine it more along the lines of Guts lying around in his own filth some more, then some incoherent, half-assed self-searching, and finally a 'meant-to-be-badass-but-actually-lame' resolution like Guts opening the Stūpa by himself. "Wow, such strength!"

Or Skull knight giving him some much needed "courage" and back story on Void?

PS : Its continuation.

 

[Goat]

[...] It would likely also be the easiest way for Guts to get a power up, and it would probably also give him the highest boost in power out of all the potential options too (mastering the Beast Of Darkness, fusing his behelit with the Dragon Slayer, etc) [...]

On these points, imho it is central to understand that """winning""" in Berserk won't probably happen through mere strength and power ups (it's almost guaranteed that the Moonlight Boy should have a central role regarding this, but this would be a completely different topic), and I think in those terms Guts power has already reached its peak via the Berserker Armor and the daemon-imbued Dragon Slayer. Moreover, mastering the Beast of Darkness (whatever that means) can't eventually consist in a power up: the Beast of Darkness isn't something really alive or with its own conscience like Kurama in Naruto, it is a psychological construct.

 

[Aazealh]

Miura builds his own world completely. Even concepts like Jyanin, Paramarisha, Kshatirya, Harshada, Kudlini etc which are used by him are not simple copy paste of real world ideas. I will not even call it a deep inspiration as well, they are mostly motifs from the real world with story and world building completely of Miura.

Indeed.

Or Skull knight giving him some much needed "courage" and back story on Void?

Hahaha, that would be hilariously inadapted to the situation so I'd say why not, except I'm really not convinced they intend to tell SK and Void's backstory.

On these points, imho it is central to understand that """winning""" in Berserk won't probably happen through mere strength and power ups

Indeed. Guts will never be as strong as Femto, and that was never the point. In truth, the term "power up" itself feels puerile and out of place here. That's because Miura was very careful not to undo the balance he'd previously established when he introduced Schierke and the Berserk's Armor in the story, which are both the biggest changes we'd have ever seen in terms of what Guts and his group can accomplish. Neither was presented as something that just made them stronger with no trade-offs.

the daemon-imbued Dragon Slayer.

Curious wording. The Dragon Slayer is imbued with the essence of all the evil beings Guts has slain with it. Talking about "daemons" invites confusion, especially given that there is an unrelated concept of Daimons in the story.

 

[Introspective narcissist]

I do not believe Miura will make Guts go into broken BSOD and entomb him in a Stupa. Thats quite antithesis of Guts and his story as a life-long struggler. If he EVER (and very hypothetically speaking) had planned that, it would be with very strong reasons and nothing like "My sword cannot cut Femto". This is the same person who carried Casca with him when there was no hope of her regaining her sanity. Guts is a Berserker not a subdued depressed. That alone makes it "not Miura's idea".

i dont know what a BSOD is. I keep seeing a pattern in this forum, where because Mori and team are obviously making horrible mistakes in their continuation of Berserk, the people here think every single thing they are doing is wrong and not from Miura. When you can point out a horrible mistake in the continuation like say how the current arc should have taken place in the bakiraka village, which we know from how silat said they were going to go there, and that the world outside falconia is inhuman infected and unlivable, that is a truth to back your claim. But when you cant similarly establish an event, or a setting with a similar chain of evidence, you have no basis for your claim. We cant know if Miura wanted to put Guts in a stupa or not.
So can it be bullshit? yes. Can it be legit? Yes.

There is no problem in accepting that you dont know if something is bullshit or not.


- Yes "My sword cannot cut femto" is a bullshit way to depict Guts's breaking. The fact that he has not thought about Casca at all is so out of character that it is crazy. I work in storyboarding, worked on actual shows, I've made comics of my own, I've written stories, I know better than most here how bad the continuation of berserk is.


- The cross with a white dove, flacon or whatever bird is crucified on it is a distorted refernce, but a clear reference to christianity used by Miura.
Is an actual cross like that? No.
Similarly, a tree does not grow on top of a stupa, it is a literal and symbolic part of it. So that stupa depicted in chapter 382, is a distorted representation of the stupa, in line with what Miura did with that cruified bird motif. Mori also hasn't mentioned buddhism at all, just called the stupa a stupa and that it is a tomb.
Can we know that this idea is from Miura? No. Can we know that it is not from Miura? No.

- Calling a structure that has the tree of life and the egg in is structure an ill-fitting for Berserk, which repeats those two symbols endlessly, is a big stretch in my humble opinion.

- I do agree that the continuation has mindlessly lifted real life locations for their continuation. Like the Hagia sofia church for example. We know it is ill fitting because a) the world outside falconia is unlivable, b) Silat was going to go to the bakiraka village, which is inside falconia, and we are shown an image of a mountainous terrain when he says that.
Can the same be said for the Stupa? I'd like to hear evidence for that.

Or Skull knight giving him some much needed "courage" and back story on Void?

PS : Its continuation.

On that whole backstory of Skullknight and Void, I had this thought.
If i was not hallucinating, i recall Miura saying in an interview that we were going to get Skullknight's backstroy.
In chapter 371, when Guts says "it was all for nothing" and crumbles on the ground, while we are shown an image of him sinking in some black watery body, for a brief moment i had the thought that Skull Kngitht's back story will be revealed via a blood memory in the armor.

How and when do you think Miura was going to reveal his backstory? Would a blood memory from the armor do?

 

[Aazealh]

i dont know what a BSOD is.

Blue screen of death, the screen Windows displays when it has experienced a critical system failure.

I keep seeing a pattern in this forum, where because Mori and team are obviously making horrible mistakes in their continuation of Berserk, the people here think every single thing they are doing is wrong and not from Miura.

I will be the first to say it if something in the Continuation looks like it might have been based on one of Miura's ideas. The developments in episode 382 do not qualify. We've been scrutinizing the Continuation since it started and, speaking for myself, I had outlined an approach where I would try to identify Miura's ideas from it before it even began. But it has long since become clear the Continuation team lied when the project was announced. They have severely and irremediably deviated from what Miura had laid out for the future.

And just to be clear, the Continuation is not being created based on reference material from Miura. It relies on Mori's memories of casual discussions with his friend. From that template, Kurosaki creates the manga. That's how it works as far as we know.

When you can point out a horrible mistake in the continuation like say how the current arc should have taken place in the bakiraka village, which we know from how silat said they were going to go there, and that the world outside falconia is inhuman infected and unlivable, that is a truth to back your claim. But when you cant similarly establish an event, or a setting with a similar chain of evidence, you have no basis for your claim. We cant know if Miura wanted to put Guts in a stupa or not.
So can it be bullshit? yes. Can it be legit? Yes.

I've already explained to you in rather simple terms why it cannot possibly be from Miura. Guts' very condition isn't something he would have depicted in that way, the location they are in wouldn't exist and the characters wouldn't be there, Silat and Daiba wouldn't behave in such a manner... Each one of these reasons is sufficient on its own, but there are so many more. I also told you about its bad design, and @Wyld Dreams pointed out to you that Miura wouldn't lift a buddhist ritual wholesale. And we could go on and on. All of this stuff has already been talked about at length on this forum, you could look it up if you cared to.

What's going on here is that you're enamored with the stūpa because you're sure you know what they want to do with it. There have been people like that before who thought they knew for sure the Continuation team was going to do this or that (e.g. "Slan's gonna show up!"). They used the same rationale you did: the rest sucks, but this one part is good (for no real reason). Then, when it turned out we were right and they were wrong, they vanished. I expect the same will happen here. As a result I'm going to ask you to not insist on arguing too much more about this. You've made your point clear and so have others. Since no one's going to change their mind, let's just wait and see the marvels the Continuation team will bless us with.

I work in storyboarding, worked on actual shows, I've made comics of my own, I've written stories, I know better than most here how bad the continuation of berserk is.

- The cross with a white dove, flacon or whatever bird is crucified on it is a distorted refernce, but a clear reference to christianity used by Miura.

You mean volume 17's title page? It's a reference to the Holy See symbol, a heretical version of it. And it's not just a bird nailed to a stick but two snakes as well, with a beherit below. It's not meant as a Christian reference.

Silat was going to go to the bakiraka village, which is inside falconia

The Bakiraka's hideout isn't inside Falconia.

On that whole backstory of Skullknight and Void, I had this thought.
If i was not hallucinating, i recall Miura saying in an interview that we were going to get Skullknight's backstroy.
In chapter 371, when Guts says "it was all for nothing" and crumbles on the ground, while we are shown an image of him sinking in some black watery body, for a brief moment i had the thought that Skull Kngitht's back story will be revealed via a blood memory in the armor.

How and when do you think Miura was going to reveal his backstory? Would a blood memory from the armor do?

That's not exactly what he said, but yes that was the idea. This would have most likely happened while our characters were still on Skellig. In his Artwork of Berserk interview, Miura had said that he had decided on the story for the second half of the Elf Island chapter. That was all scrubbed by the Continuation, which immediately got rid of the island.

Anyway, the imagery in episode 371 is not particularly meaningful, it's only meant to show Guts sinking, losing his mind, that sort of stuff. It's got nothing to do with blood or the Skull Knight. It's also misleading to talk about "blood memories" like they're a special thing. In episode 362, Hanarr says he'll show Guts "the memories of the blood ingrained in this armor." It's just a poetic way of saying the previous owner's death left an imprint. It doesn't mean Guts could relive his entire life like that, the implication is that's all there was to see. If Miura intended to show us more of that era, I expect it would have been via a proper flashback.

 

[Introspective narcissist]

I will be the first to say it if something in the Continuation looks like it might have been based on one of Miura's ideas. The developments in episode 382 do not qualify. We've been scrutinizing the Continuation since it started and, speaking for myself, I had outlined an approach where I would try to identify Miura's ideas from it before it even began. But it has long since become clear the Continuation team lied when the project was announced. They have severely and irremediably deviated from what Miura had laid out for the future.

And just to be clear, the Continuation is not being created based on reference material from Miura. It relies on Mori's memories of casual discussions with his friend. From that template, Kurosaki creates the manga. That's how it works as far as we know.

Okay. Consider this my last attempt at bringing up this topic and humor it for a bit. I wont bring it up afterwards.

- Miura could write and draw like few can, so i agree that he would not depict Guts's depression this way. If i were judging the storyboards for the chapters after miura's death, they would have to go back and redo it again and again, because it fails at the story telling level and has endless continutity and other errors. In fact, if the storyboards for one of these chapters were brought up as a portfolio piece in an interview, the candidate would not be hired for a storyboarding job, they'd get started as an intern who had to learn the ins and outs of storytelling in the visual format.

That however covers the depiction part, and that if Miura was doing it, he would do it way way differently, and we can all agree brilliantly. That however does not mean that Guts would not be in a state of depression, which i have seen asserted in this forum based on his past behaviour. This assertion ignores the gravity of what has happened on this tortuous journey that was paid in blood, sweat and sanity, traversing continents, oceans, all for it be reset by the same demon/god of this world who took his belovd away from him, and has now stashed her far away in his kingdom surrounded by the same demons who harmed her.

That is not something to shrugg off and continue on with your past behaviour. If guts feels that his sword cant touch griffith, he has good reason to think that, even if he saves casca, griffith will just humiliate him and take casca from his hands once more.
Everyone has their limit, and guts too can reach his limit.
I'm not saying that that is how Mori is thinking, i'm saying that, without Miura around, and without any verifiable fact like with the bakiraka village as the proper location for the current arc, this depressed state of guts is in the realm of possibility. I'm NOT asserting it as the truth, but as a possiblity.



- Now i come to your thoughts on location regarding the stupa.
The bakiraka village is not in kushan lands, it is within midland. If Miura were alive and that is how he would have done this, there is no reason to think he could not have put a stupa inside the bakiraka village. The stupa as you see in chapter 382 is not a large structure like say the tower of conviction. If i dont recall it wrong, and correct me if i am, you refuted the stupa by asserting previously that since nothing outside falconia is livable, so there is no kushan city and therefore no stupa.
My point states that the stupa could easily exist inside the bakiraka village where the current arc was originally supposed to take place. So the stupa's existence is not relying and not predicated on the existence of the kushan city outside midland. Again, i'm not passing that as fact, but as a possibility. We can tell that the arc should have taken place in the bakiraka village based on facts inside the manga, and therefore refute the kushan city existing, we cant however similarly refute the stupa.

- I agree that the behaviour of diaba, silat, heck eveyone is bizzare as hell.

- I dont want to do another credential drop, but i have worked both as a character designer and a graphic designer for years. I dont cateogarize the stupa depicted in chapter 382 as bad design. In fact they have taken the tree of life, which is an internal structure in the stupa, but which is an external structure in berserk verse, and just depicted it externally, without revealing to uninformed fans that a tree of life is an essential part of the stupa. The fact, and it is a fact, that the stupa's essential components are the tree of life and an egg, both of which are depicted here, dont make it a bad design either. They serve their intended function. If miura were doing it however, he would do it a million times better.

- I also pointed out to Wyld dreams that neither you nor him have yet acknowledged is that, Mori never called the stupa buddhist,he just called it a) an ancient tomb, and b) a stupa. Just like Diaba just mentions the kundalini, or how the tapasa are called that, without ever saying those are hindu yogic terms.
The midland places of worship are called churches in berserk. Is merley using the word church by miura, lifting everything that is christian and transplanting it into berserk? I think you would obviously say no.

- You also have to understand, what is going on in chapter 382 is not a buddhsit ritual, but very likely an amalgamation of the various stupas and various buddhist traditions across asia and japan and the authors personal take - emphasis on the LIKELY part. Buddhists didnt put people inside stupas and left them to die. Domed stupas, as seen in 382 are tombs, i.e. you dont go inside them. You circle it, pray to the sacred relics inside it. Pagoda's which are coned stupas let people inside the central dome. In the one i have been to, the central dome is a place only experienced meditators are let into. This gives us a possible introspection, meditation angle to guts's confinement. Sokushinbutsu was a uniquely chinese and japanese buddhist tradition where certain monks willingly entomed themselves(not in a stupa) in order to reach enlightenemnt by fasting onto death. The decay or lack of decay on their dead body would signal success or failure to them. The dead harshada's near the stupa premises vaguely signal this practice. I could easily be wrong with these speculations based on various traditions across various versions of buddhism, but the point to remember here is that entombing living people inside a stupa is NOT a buddhist ritual.


- Uh i actually predicted this whole stupa scenario or should i say buddhist scenario before the chapter ever came out. If you think i'm kidding, you can see my youtube video, or the posts on my fb page or on and under my reddit post - i'll provide links if needed. I basically concluded that since western magic helped save casca's sanity with the corridor of dreams ritual, maybe eastern magic had something to help guts as well. But i did not just stop at that vague prediction, i referenced a samurai jack episode called the Aku infection, where jack a swordsman, gets infected by aku's evil essence and goes to BUDDHIST monks for help. They help save his sanity by tying him up in place and having him face the evil within himself on his own - which he does.

And even as i harp on getting this prediction right, i have been wrong plenty of times as well.


- Yes, you are correct, the bird nailed on the cross is a heretical version of the holy see's symbol. So that is my bad on that. But that however does not delink it with christianity, since the places of worship of the holy see are called Churches - recall schierke calling it that, when she is talking to the priest and farnese. The word "temple" is a generic name for a place of worship, whereas the word "church" explicitly references christianity. So my point stands about how real world religous concepts and structures are being included in berserk and the similarly distorted depiction of the stupa does not deviate from miura's typical ways. Heck he called Ganishka's double reincarnated form Shiva from hindusm, when the actual shiva looks nothign like that. He even depicted Ganishka as krishna(who is another hindu god) when he was showing his flahsback.
I'm not saying that as an assertion that the stupa is Miura's idea, I'm saying its status as miura's or not his is unknown and will be unknown, and that conclusively calling it not his, specially without evidence is not credible.

- yes, it's my bad for saying bakiraka hideout is in falconia, their village is within midland borders.


- Skullknight is not a talker, so i imagined that the one way to get his backstory without him actually revealing it himself or with a flashback, would be possible with a blood memory or what you called it, residing inside the armor.


Whatever you and others reply to this comment, i'l reply back. After that i wont bring up these topics again.

 

[Aazealh]

Consider this my last attempt at bringing up this topic and humor it for a bit. I wont bring it up afterwards.

Sure. I always seriously consider what people say in these threads.

if Miura was doing it, he would do it way way differently, and we can all agree brilliantly. That however does not mean that Guts would not be in a state of depression, which i have seen asserted in this forum based on his past behaviour. This assertion ignores the gravity of what has happened on this tortuous journey that was paid in blood, sweat and sanity, traversing continents, oceans, all for it be reset by the same demon/god of this world who took his belovd away from him

You're missing the point, starting with the fact Guts' current state as depicted in the Continuation has nothing to do with Casca. It is exclusively related to the fact he could not hit Griffith with his sword. That is what the Continuation tells us. Now, it's important to understand that this is not how Guts thinks. He does not blame his tools when he can't do something. In fact, he views his sword as an extension of himself, as we see in volume 10. So "my sword betrayed me" is not something that is faithful to his character.

You can say he would change how he thinks if Casca were to be abducted, but there is no basis for it, and the fact the Continuation deliberately avoids showing him thinking about her works against the case you're making. So the whole "sword depression" deal is stupid, but there's more. Miura had set up something else entirely as a looming danger for Guts: his use of the Berserk's Armor. This had been conveyed repeatedly to us ever since he acquired it. The reckoning was due. And that instead was not addressed by the Continuation, and may not be in the future. If you limit your thinking to the confines the Continuation set for you, you will not be able to see the bigger picture.

Another parameter you refuse to take into account is the number of episodes this has lasted. Almost 15 episodes of Guts being out of the picture, with almost no internal thinking on his part. He's been sidelined. And his friends are ignoring him, too! This is not something Miura would have done with his character, plain and simple. That's what I'm talking about when I say the depiction is wrong. If Guts were to have been depressed, we would have been privy to his thoughts, and a resolution would then have been found. Like it's been done in the past. To keep him in suspended animation for almost two volumes is bad storytelling, and that's one sure way you can tell Miura would not have done it.

The bakiraka village is not in kushan lands, it is within midland. If Miura were alive and that is how he would have done this, there is no reason to think he could not have put a stupa inside the bakiraka village.

You're missing the point again. Yes, Guts' group would have eventually linked up with Rickert and the Bakiraka. And they might have visited the Bakiraka's hidden village. But the timeline is important here. The Continuation team engineered a downright ridiculous narrative shortcut when they destroyed the island, followed by another one when they teleported the Sea Horse halfway across the world only for it to get immediately captured. This is not what Miura had planned for the story.

Regardless of what might have happened to the island and its inhabitants in the end, it would have benefited from a lot more screen time. Then the characters would not have been magically teleported to the Bakiraka's place, especially since they're on a ship and it's at the top of a mountain. They might have gone through a whole bunch of things before meeting up. So the question becomes: how long do you think Guts would have stayed in a vegetative state, which is a condition required for the whole stūpa idea to make sense? 30 episodes? 40 episodes? That goes squarely against the idea of him remaining the protagonist of the story, in fact it's preposterous.

And there's more. See, in Miura's Berserk, Rickert is the one who allows Daiba to come along when they escape Falconia. Daiba doesn't know about the Bakiraka's village. And the Bakiraka are a clan of assassins who rely on honing their bodies, they are not a spiritual people who would rely on powers beyond human comprehension. Silat makes a point of it to Jarif in volume 33. With all of this in mind, and Silat in charge with Rickert playing an important role, and Schierke not in a prolonged trance (because that also makes no sense), what reason would there be to put Guts in a stūpa? Because in the Continuation, they're just leaving him there to die, and it's solely Daiba's call (for a bullshit reason, too). So that doesn't make sense either.

I agree that the behaviour of diaba, silat, heck eveyone is bizzare as hell.

The thing is, said bizarre behavior is necessary for Guts to be marched to the stūpa while sleep-walking (to be left to die). The real characters from the real Berserk wouldn't do this.

I dont cateogarize the stupa depicted in chapter 382 as bad design.

Everyone reading this is free to make up their own mind on whether a tree could grow on top of a stone structure without its roots reaching soil.

The midland places of worship are called churches in berserk.

You're wrong, the word used in Japanese (寺院) refers to any temple, not specifically to catholic churches.

Mori never called the stupa buddhist,he just called it a) an ancient tomb, and b) a stupa. Just like Diaba just mentions the kundalini, or how the tapasa are called that, without ever saying those are hindu yogic terms.

You should know Mori is probably not the one writing the dialogue for these episodes. And yes, we know it wasn't called buddhist. But it's almost a 1:1 transposition, unlike the Kundalini (a magical snake in Berserk) or the Tapasa (ultra buff elite assassins).

You also have to understand, what is going on in chapter 382 is not a buddhsit ritual

Yes I believe everyone here understands that buddhism doesn't call for sick people to be left to "die and be forgotten" in sacred mausoleums. That is another probable reason why Miura would not do such a thing, because it is insensitive.

Uh i actually predicted this whole stupa scenario or should i say buddhist scenario before the chapter ever came out. If you think i'm kidding, you can see my youtube video, or the posts on my fb page or on and under my reddit post - i'll provide links if needed. I basically concluded that since western magic helped save casca's sanity with the corridor of dreams ritual, maybe eastern magic had something to help guts as well. But i did not just stop at that vague prediction, i referenced a samurai jack episode called the Aku infection, where jack a swordsman, gets infected by aku's evil essence and goes to BUDDHIST monks for help.

Like I said, it's clear you're enamored with this idea. That's fine. But you shouldn't expect too much out of the Continuation. Also, the Corridor of Dreams isn't really "western magic".

Yes, you are correct, the bird nailed on the cross is a heretical version of the holy see's symbol. So that is my bad on that. But that however does not delink it with christianity, since the places of worship of the holy see are called Churches - recall schierke calling it that, when she is talking to the priest and farnese. The word "temple" is a generic name for a place of worship, whereas the word "church" explicitly references christianity. So my point stands

As I indicated above, they're not actually called "churches". You ought to refer to the original Japanese text if you're trying to argue on this forum.

yes, it's my bad for saying bakiraka hideout is in falconia, their village is within midland borders.

To be specific, their hidden village is within the Western lands, but we do not know exactly where. Silat's wording is vague.

Skullknight is not a talker, so i imagined that the one way to get his backstory without him actually revealing it himself or with a flashback, would be possible with a blood memory or what you called it, residing inside the armor.

Like I explained to you, the point was that it showed the moment of Gaizeric's death. Guts would not have been able to experience his entire life in such a manner, that does not make sense.

 

[Masa]

Anyway, the imagery in episode 371 is not particularly meaningful, it's only meant to show Guts sinking, losing his mind, that sort of stuff. It's got nothing to do with blood or the Skull Knight. It's also misleading to talk about "blood memories" like they're a special thing. In episode 362, Hanarr says he'll show Guts "the memories of the blood ingrained in this armor." It's just a poetic way of saying the previous owner's death left an imprint. It doesn't mean Guts could relive his entire life like that, the implication is that's all there was to see. If Miura intended to show us more of that era, I expect it would have been via a proper flashback.

Ugh... This really depresses me. It's clear that everything was set up in Elfhelm for some big reveals.... only for it to be unceremoniously dumped in the continuation. I can't blame Studio Gaga if Miura never went into any detail about that. It looks like Mori was told that Griffith invaded the island, so they cut straight to that, but it's still tragic that such a defining part of the story was lost

 

[Aazealh]

Ugh... This really depresses me. It's clear that everything was set up in Elfhelm for some big reveals.... only for it to be unceremoniously dumped in the continuation. I can't blame Studio Gaga if Miura never went into any detail about that. It looks like Mori was told that Griffith invaded the island, so they cut straight to that, but it's still tragic that such a defining part of the story was lost

Well I think it's fine to blame them for starting this Continuation project when they had so little to go on, and then for lying to us about it when they said they would not deviate from what Miura wanted.

 

[Wyld Dreams]

But when you cant similarly establish an event, or a setting with a similar chain of evidence, you have no basis for your claim. We cant know if Miura wanted to put Guts in a stupa or not.
So can it be bullshit? yes. Can it be legit? Yes.

There is a way to convey an idea and there is a way to pretend to convey an idea. I will give you on concrete example which might help you to understand where I am coming from.

When Miura was in charge, this is what happened :

1. Guts overhears Griffith's conversation with Charlotte about how he thinks about Band of Hawks being important comrades working with and for him towards HIS dream and whom will he consider good enough to be his friend. It's a very very important point in the story which sets entire storyline on the path that led it to where it is now.

2. Guts realizes what he needs to do and goes on a lonely journey of self-discovery (his own dream) and growth (materially to be able to fights inhumane like Zodd on his own). When he returns his strength growth is so much that he could take on a powerful apostle like Wyald on his own (note that he was defeated by Zodd previously).

Before Guts overhearing that conversation, he would have likely never done something like that. He was Griffiths close, if not closest comrade and thought himself as his "friend" and dare I say, saw his dream of a kingdom as his own dream.

This is Miura at work here : He establishes a strong bond between Griffith and Guts. Establishes foreshadow of its breaking. Gives EXTREMELY strong reason why Guts walked away from it. Establishes how Guts grew so strong post his leaving Band of Hawks. And on top of it has a very well and meticulously over arching plan (the chain and network of causality under influenced of God of Abyss) so every thing fits perfectly. Zodd even said it way before "It is that kind of ploy".

Now compare this to current setup:

0. Guts enter a depression derived stupor, something that has never happened to him.

1. Daiba does some horoscope thing --which he was never shown to be proficient in but since he is sage-ish old man, we are supposed to believe he can do that-- and predicts where sea horse ship will be and Silat and Kushan folks go capture Guts on it. Meaning he planned to bring Guts here.

2. Daiba orders Guts to be kept in some kind of holding cell.

3. Some weird kind of Griffith inspired attack happens on Kushan.

4. Guts is the target of it.

5. Attack is repelled and Daiba says Guts is trouble due to his brand.

6. Daiba takes Guts to some exclusive place for "Monks" to be sealed in a Stupa. Meanwhile Silat et al who were not supposed to follow them follow them in some weird now-you-see-me-now-you-dont manner.

7. Guts is aware of the situation and accepts to be entombed.

Now can you see how ... schizophrenic this story looks? Daiba can not fukken decide why the hell he wants Guts in the first place. Silat can not decide what he thinks about Guts. Daiba does not know what his relationship with Silat is : is he superior to Silat or is he a subordinate to Silat. Silat can not make up his mind if he is following Daiba to Stupa stealthily or just a part of procession. And in a matter of two pages they shows ALL of this behaviour.

There is NO ploy (Sorry Zodd). There is NO current --let's not even talk about counter current-- of causality. The effects have no bearing of cause at ALL... It's like God of Abyss has suddenly become a crazy elf high on LSD and Cocaine at the same time and is just throwing shit on the world. Heck, even Void and God Hand will rebel against him if he keeps on going like that.

And you see Hagia Sofia, Stupa, untouchable Brhamna procession and what not. Its weird. Just putting flashy thing for the sake of the being flashy. This is a parade of Motifs with no meaning or intention behind them AT ALL. Just putting some motifs because Miura in past have put motifs. Not even bothering to senitize motifs to match the Berserk's world building.

I mean I am reminded of that movie Idiocracy. They have a movie in the movie called "Ass" which is exactly what it says. An Ass that farts sporadically. It is supposedly best movie in that world. The conclusion of Idiocracy sums up my feeling about this situation : Movies should show more than an Ass. We should also be shown, whose ass is that and why is it farting.

Thats why I believe "Stupa" etc is not Miura's idea because Miura will establish why the hell Stupa exist in the world and why we should care about it. Any connection to real-world Stupa will be an additional layer of enjoyment for more dedicated fans and not so central and untold to the readership of the manga.

Continuation simply does not do any of that. Stupa is another Haiga Sophia here. A procession of meaningless disconnected motifs and that we are trying too hard to put in a schizophrenic and possibly non existent plot. It could have been Alcatraz for all I care because I do not know why the hell I should bother about it.

 

[Masa]

Well I think it's fine to blame them for starting this Continuation project when they had so little to go on, and then for lying to us about it when they said they would not deviate from what Miura wanted.