Has there ever been a time for you when Berserk forced it?

[Walter]

it turned out that the Daka were next to useless. I guess the whole thing was really just Ganishka's or the GH's excuse to have the apostle bag made so that Ganishka could break the world with it later.

I think this is giving Ganishka and his creations too little credit. He created the Daka and Pishacha for an age where human wars were the status quo, and he decimated their armies with no resistance. Of course, then Griffith came to the world, allied with an unstoppable force that took a millennium to assemble. Ganishka's hybrids aren't up to apostle standards, but I don't think they were ever meant to be.

 

[Tass]

I thought the scene where a naked Schierke stumbles on a sleeping Guts felt like something out of a much lesser and creepier manga. I don't want kiddie sexual tension in my Berserk, Miura. The schoolgirl crush thing was kind of cute until that scene.

 

[Lithrael]

Hmm, I'd forgotten the Daka start as puppies, so the ones we saw being made wouldn't have been for the upcoming battle anyway.

That's true, the Daka were surely a great troop booster for normal warfare and useful up til that point. Even if Ganishka didn't need them for the capture of Wyndham. It still seems weird that he was all excited to pit them against the apostle forces in Wyndham just for them to immediately get wiped. It's just hard to imagine Ganishka didn't have any idea what to expect with the apostle forces. And I suppose it would be foolish in war not to put out everything you've got even if you don't think it's gonna do much, and it's not like Ganishka isn't supposed to be gross, but it's still pretty gross.

For that matter the prisoners bound for Daka production would have been a great opportunity to counter the one actual sexist element of Berserk, All Naked Ladies Are Reasonably Hot. Because I'm really very sure that the hotness level of the women wouldn't be a factor in their suitability for making Daka, and if that's most of the point of Ganishka's army taking conquered women prisoner it would be highly foolish to only take the cute ones. Even the trolls had a better excuse for only finding/taking sexy looking women; you could make the argument that practically all the girls in the farming village could be built like that or that the trolls only liked the cute ones (similarly you could argue only the cutest girls would be around/take part in the naked stuff in the heretics' orgy). But Ganishka's army has been rolling over the entire country, so you'd now have to argue that either there are literally no ladies who are fertile but aren't nicely built or that the army puts them all somewhere you can't see them. Not that we ever really see many of these doomed women, but the ones we do see have a very narrow range of body types. The 'little sister' during the rescue is the only one I saw on a casual flip through that would look out of place as a pinup. (I forgot the apostle bag is way back in vol 27! dang.)

But really, the Daka fights all gross me out just because we know every single Daka represents an exploded probably raped lady, there are absolutely tons of them, and on top of that they all just get mowed down. They all look kind of messed up and random, and so many of them just look kind of confused and cute. I don't even feel like we were ever really supposed to feel that threatened by the Daka (we never really got to see them holding their own in battle but rather just showing up, looking scary in a big mob, and then getting facerolled) but rather that they represented how far off the rails Ganishka was. Silatt was appropriately grossed out, after all.

 

[Eluvei]

I thought the scene where a naked Schierke stumbles on a sleeping Guts felt like something out of a much lesser and creepier manga. I don't want kiddie sexual tension in my Berserk, Miura. The schoolgirl crush thing was kind of cute until that scene.

Yeah, it's pretty much the only panel I felt embarrassed seeing. She appears nude a page or two before but in a humorous or at least not sexualized manner. There's really no excuse for the angle and position he decided to show us her ass all of a sudden.

 

[Kaladin]

I never felt like the violence was there for the sake of being violent and making the story dark. Conviction arc to me is the most disturbing part of the story but all the stuff that was shown just makes those situations more terrifying and showing how cruel and dangerous this world can be. When reading, i never even in the slightest thought "this is too much" "he's trying too hard" etc.. never liked the scene with Schierke, not matter how you try to explain it, i don't want to see something like that with Schierke or a different character in the future.

 

[Skeleton]

For that matter the prisoners bound for Daka production would have been a great opportunity to counter the one actual sexist element of Berserk, All Naked Ladies Are Reasonably Hot. Because I'm really very sure that the hotness level of the women wouldn't be a factor in their suitability for making Daka, and if that's most of the point of Ganishka's army taking conquered women prisoner it would be highly foolish to only take the cute ones. Even the trolls had a better excuse for only finding/taking sexy looking women; you could make the argument that practically all the girls in the farming village could be built like that or that the trolls only liked the cute ones (similarly you could argue only the cutest girls would be around/take part in the naked stuff in the heretics' orgy). But Ganishka's army has been rolling over the entire country, so you'd now have to argue that either there are literally no ladies who are fertile but aren't nicely built or that the army puts them all somewhere you can't see them. Not that we ever really see many of these doomed women, but the ones we do see have a very narrow range of body types. The 'little sister' during the rescue is the only one I saw on a casual flip through that would look out of place as a pinup. (I forgot the apostle bag is way back in vol 27! dang.)

It took six years of patiently waiting in the shadows... watching... breathing heavily... But I knew my suspicions would eventually be confirmed. You were m's wife all along! [/plottwist]

 

[Lithrael]

Hah! I'd forgotten about the nipplelessness

I should probably walk that back a little, I don't think it's actually sexist, more a style choice, but still does rankle me a smidgen. And I realise it does sound weird that I'm essentially saying 'well he draws a great variety of body types for naked men and men with clothes on and women with clothes on so why not naked women too!' Anyway that'd be a discussion for that other thread and I think we already hashed it out pretty well there. It's not related to Berserk squicking me out, just a tangent to the Daka.

 

[JMP]

Maybe I'm just being naive or something, but I didn't take that scene where Schierke got spun around in her towel by Casca and ended up naked leaning on a sleeping Guts as being all that sexualized. I mean I know it's playing on the fact that she has a crush on Guts and that situation would be very embarrassing for a young girl, especially one who's a bit on the reserved side, like Schierke is, but it all just struck me as more silly/goofy. I thought seeing her bare behind was kinda funny. Also, I think showing her bare bottom gives the reader more of a sense of how embarrassed/exposed Schierke feels in that moment. Other events within that scene are pretty comedic, so that's how I took it.

 

[jackson_hurley]

Maybe I'm just being naive or something, but I didn't take that scene where Schierke got spun around in her towel by Casca and ended up naked leaning on a sleeping Guts as being all that sexualized. I mean I know it's playing on the fact that she has a crush on Guts and that situation would be very embarrassing for a young girl, especially one who's a bit on the reserved side, like Schierke is, but it all just struck me as more silly/goofy. I thought seeing her bare behind was kinda funny. Also, I think showing her bare bottom gives the reader more of a sense of how embarrassed/exposed Schierke feels in that moment. Other events within that scene are pretty comedic, so that's how I took it.

This is pretty much what I had in mind. The scene never bothered me at all.

 

[Walter]

Maybe I'm just being naive or something, but I didn't take that scene where Schierke got spun around in her towel by Casca and ended up naked leaning on a sleeping Guts as being all that sexualized. I mean I know it's playing on the fact that she has a crush on Guts and that situation would be very embarrassing for a young girl, especially one who's a bit on the reserved side, like Schierke is, but it all just struck me as more silly/goofy. I thought seeing her bare behind was kinda funny. Also, I think showing her bare bottom gives the reader more of a sense of how embarrassed/exposed Schierke feels in that moment. Other events within that scene are pretty comedic, so that's how I took it.

Well said. I think the reaction this scene often gets is primarily from American audiences. We tend to be a bit on the prudish side, second-guessing how other cultures approach nudity -- and really, anything even remotely sexual. But this is meant to be a funny scene, not sexually charged or titillating. I don't feel I really need to spell it out, but ... it's funny because this otherwise conservative, introspective girl who is usually dressed head-to-toe in robes ends up butt-naked and lying on top of her crush, and it's mortifying to her. It's also worth noting that Guts doesn't care or even seem to notice that she was undressed, but he still gets scorched.

 

[jackson_hurley]

It's also worth noting that Guts doesn't care or even seem to notice that she was undressed, but he still gets scorched.

Yeah, I laughed pretty hard the first time I saw that. These moments are often my favorite ones because we see the crew in a human way doing mundane stuff. I'm always glad to get to that part when i reread the series which I'm getting there again soon enough (I'm at volume 28 right now)

 

[Eluvei]

Well said. I think the reaction this scene often gets is primarily from American audiences. We tend to be a bit on the prudish side, second-guessing how other cultures approach nudity -- and really, anything even remotely sexual. But this is meant to be a funny scene, not sexually charged or titillating.

I always found it to be a pretty generic ecchi kind of scene. Like I said, the angle that we're shown it, with her ass turned towards us while she's slightly curved forward and stuff... I mean sure, the panel is sandwiched between hilarious panels and it's the catalyst to her funny reaction so it's not completely gratuitous but I think that one drawing in particular isn't really funny (or supposed to be funny); it's pretty much the definition of fan service to me.

And I'm from a country whose tourism is based on asses and boners so it's not culture shock at work here, it's just how I interpret it.

 

[Aazealh]

That's true, the Daka were surely a great troop booster for normal warfare and useful up til that point. Even if Ganishka didn't need them for the capture of Wyndham.

We never see the capture of Wyndham. Who's to say how it occurred?

It still seems weird that he was all excited to pit them against the apostle forces in Wyndham just for them to immediately get wiped.

Feels completely natural to me. He was eager, in his hubris, to see how his own demonic troops would fare against Griffith's. Remember that this is the same apostle who thought he actually had a shot at defeating Griffith. That they were soundly beaten (not really immediately, but they definitely weren't up to the challenge) is also natural.

It's just hard to imagine Ganishka didn't have any idea what to expect with the apostle forces. And I suppose it would be foolish in war not to put out everything you've got even if you don't think it's gonna do much

Thing is, Ganishka had more troops than that, and he was confident (rightly so) that none of the apostles there could defeat him. But he hadn't expected the fact that they were only a diversion. That he didn't really care about losing a hundred Daka isn't very surprising to me. He was making more all the time, as we saw. Sure, it's gross, but as you say yourself, it's supposed to be. People in the real world strap bombs to little children. I don't have to tell you this, but war is ugly. Nothing we're shown in Berserk beats the real life atrocities humans have exacted.

For that matter the prisoners bound for Daka production would have been a great opportunity to counter the one actual sexist element of Berserk, All Naked Ladies Are Reasonably Hot. Because I'm really very sure that the hotness level of the women wouldn't be a factor in their suitability for making Daka

Maybe the soldiers only wanted to rape the pretty ones. So the ugly ones were used as food for the Pishacha.

I always found it to be a pretty generic ecchi kind of scene. Like I said, the angle that we're shown it, with her ass turned towards us while she's slightly curved forward and stuff... I mean sure, the panel is sandwiched between hilarious panels and it's the catalyst to her funny reaction so it's not completely gratuitous but I think that one drawing in particular isn't really funny (or supposed to be funny); it's pretty much the definition of fan service to me.

Except that doesn't sound like the kind of "service" the fans of Berserk would look forward to. Just like seeing Farnese's breasts once every 12 volumes isn't what keeps the readers coming back. It's just that the Japanese don't have the same rapport to nudity than some western countries do.

And I'm from a country whose tourism is based on asses and boners so it's not culture shock at work here, it's just how I interpret it.

That might play more of a role in your interpretation of the scene than you think it does. I mean we see Puck's ass all the time and no one cares. Did volume 15's cover bother you as well?

 

[Eluvei]

Except that doesn't sound like the kind of "service" the fans of Berserk would look forward to. Just like seeing Farnese's breasts once every 12 volumes isn't what keeps the readers coming back. It's just that the Japanese don't have the same rapport to nudity than some western countries do.

I didn't mean Miura researched what would turn readers on and stuff. I never thought he tried to sexualize post-Eclipse Casca for example, even when she's nude. I know he doesn't write for 2ch users.

That might play more of a role in your interpretation of the scene than you think it does. I mean we see Puck's ass all the time and no one cares. Did volume 15's cover bother you as well?

There's something to the vulnerability of a nude girl while the "camera" points at her ass in that position that bothers me. It's not just the nudity itself, it's the angle, her position, the manner in which he exposes her to us. I saw it and immediately thought it was a typical erotic manga scene, while the previous page doesn't bother me at all (and we're shown more of her, in terms of anatomy). In Puck's case, he's a tiny humanoid fantasy creature that's always nude, I'm not bothered by it.

 

[Aazealh]

There's something to the vulnerability of a nude girl while the "camera" points at her ass in that position that bothers me. It's not just the nudity itself, it's the angle, her position, the manner in which he exposes her to us. I saw it and immediately thought it was a typical erotic manga scene, while the previous page doesn't bother me at all (and we're shown more of her, in terms of anatomy). In Puck's case, he's a tiny humanoid fantasy creature that's always nude, I'm not bothered by it.

Well, like I said, I think your cultural background may influence how you perceive the scene more than you think it does. The cover with Puck that I mentioned has almost the exact same pose in it, but no one's bothered by it. Personally, I see nothing erotic in that panel with Schierke. It's revealing because it's meant to show why she's embarrassed and to what extent, but I don't find it titillating at all. Just like Casca's breasts a few pages before aren't. It's rather the big moment of shame in that little comedic segment that justifies the previous build up (with other angles showing her on top of Guts) and the disproportionate reaction afterwards. This is reinforced by the fact Isidro had been trying to spy on them bathing all along while Schierke struggled to preserve Casca's own nudity, while she eventually ends up naked herself.

Of course, you're free to disagree. But to suggests it's "fan service" or that this is meant to be erotic is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[Eluvei]

Well, like I said, I think your cultural background may influence how you perceive the scene more than you think it does. The cover with Puck that I mentioned has almost the exact same pose in it, but no one's bothered by it.

It could be. As for Puck, I don't think it's a fair comparison. He's a fantasy creature that's nude since we've met him, and I've never interpreted his exposed body as the focal point or the main purpose of a panel like Schierke's was (in my opinion). What's more, the fact that he's comfortable being naked plays a part in why I think it's fine that he's always like that, so even in the same position I don't think the two situations are comparable.

Of course, you're free to disagree. But to suggests it's "fan service" or that this is meant to be erotic is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.

Yeah as you explained, I can see that panel being used simply as a means to further the little segment, so you're right that I used the term "fan service" incorrectly (I even said somewhere that I don't find it completely gratuitous).

But I do think that pose, even within a context, is used purposefully erotically in that page. Being the great visual storyteller he is, I think Miura knew of more than one way to communicate what he did without showing us her nude behind in that position. And given the character, and the age she appears to be, I have a problem with it.

 

[ryuu]

But I do think that pose, even within a context, is used purposefully erotically in that page. Being the great visual storyteller he is, I think Miura knew of more than one way to communicate what he did without showing us her nude behind in that position. And given the character, and the age she appears to be, I have a problem with it.

I think you might be taking it too seriously dude.

 

[Eluvei]

I think you might be taking it too seriously dude.

I forgot to mention I go around bookstores and draw pants on Schierke on my weekends so that people won't be blinded by it.

Being serious though, I'm not the only one bothered by it, so I don't think it's a worthless subject to talk about. I tried to explain as well as I could why I don't like it. It's what the thread is for (I think).

 

[Aazealh]

But I do think that pose, even within a context, is used purposefully erotically in that page.

What would the purpose be, though? To titillate the reader in the midst of a comic scene? It doesn't make sense.

 

[Lithrael]

Fair enough with the Daka discussion. You make reasonable points. Ganishka's hubris sounds right.

As for Schierke's butt:

What would the purpose be, though? To titillate the reader in the midst of a comic scene? It doesn't make sense.

Well, it's not as though comedy + titillation is an unheard of combination, but it's pretty much always silly titillation. The titty bullet dodge scene from Highschool of the Dead might be fanservice but I don't think it's supposed to actually get anyone hot, despite all the lovingly animated bosom jiggles. It's supposed to make you laugh.

I might call Schierke's butt fanservice in the sense that I'm sure there are readers out there that went "aah!! I got to see Schierke's butt!" but I am definitely of the opinion that it's just supposed to make you laugh at/with the awkwardness of Schierke's situation. Not least because it's really not a flattering/sexy drawing. And also because the default non-westernized setting for bathing nudity in Japan is non-sexual. You wouldn't, for example, mistake the naked girls bathing in Totoro for fanservice.

It only feels more like that because Schierke herself is embarrassed about landing nekkid on the manliest guy in the room. Contrast this to all the nudity of Isma, with a very beautiful and graceful body, but she's shown going about her business so it doesn't feel dirty/gratuitous.

It's Schierke's own feelings you're picking up on here, in short. I'm sure she would be mortified to hear all of Guts' biggest fans saw her fall buck naked on top of the guy.

 

[Oburi]

I was never bothered by that scene. I remember when I first read it being surprised, but it was more about what was happening in the situation. I definitely didn't find it sexual or suggestive. Schierke is a little girl, who happens to be in an extremely awkward situation. Talk about emBARE-ASSing! Miura just drew that scene the way he did for maximum impact.

 

[Aazealh]

Well, it's not as though comedy + titillation is an unheard of combination, but it's pretty much always silly titillation. The titty bullet dodge scene from Highschool of the Dead might be fanservice but I don't think it's supposed to actually get anyone hot, despite all the lovingly animated bosom jiggles. It's supposed to make you laugh.

Seems like a specious comparison to me. I was trying to appeal to Eluvei's common sense regarding author intent, not argue whether it's theoretically possible.

I might call Schierke's butt fanservice in the sense that I'm sure there are readers out there that went "aah!! I got to see Schierke's butt!"

That's an extremely wide-ranging definition then. Is the picture of the Count eating someone (in volume 2) fan service because a guy somewhere is into vore?

I am definitely of the opinion that it's just supposed to make you laugh at/with the awkwardness of Schierke's situation. Not least because it's really not a flattering/sexy drawing. And also because the default non-westernized setting for bathing nudity in Japan is non-sexual. You wouldn't, for example, mistake the naked girls bathing in Totoro for fanservice.

Agreed completely.

 

[Eluvei]

Seems like a specious comparison to me. I was trying to appeal to Eluvei's common sense regarding author intent, not argue whether it's theoretically possible.

For the sake of comparison I checked out the similar sequence from volume 6, where Casca wakes up nude and attacks Guts in a comical manner, and the panel she realizes she's exposed never did, and still doesn't, appear fanservicey to me. She's just sitting there blank-faced. In Schierke's case, we're "forced" to look at her butt, which I don't think is a stretch to say is the only thing in the foreground, and then her tiny blushing face.

But to be honest, I think I'd be bothered by it if it was Schierke instead of Casca in that volume 6 panel as well. I admit that what I find disturbing is the simple fact that it's a child being drawn naked in a way that's too exposed (not obscured, not cartoony) even in a context where that's the point. Taking into account his track record as an author that had never gone out of his way to show nudity in a manner I'd consider particularly puerile, and what you guys wrote, I'm currently more inclined to agree it's a cultural thing.

In a vacuum I'd still see that panel and think it's something that can only be seen as perverted due to the pose alone, but that's unfair to Miura. I mean, he had a good chance to draw her in an inappropriate way in a beach outfit, as is often the case with other manga, but instead he went with this, right?

 

[Aazealh]

For the sake of comparison I checked out the similar sequence from volume 6, where Casca wakes up nude and attacks Guts in a comical manner, and the panel she realizes she's exposed never did, and still doesn't, appear fanservicey to me.

That shot of Casca is actually more suggestive, as far as I'm concerned. But I agree, it's not "fan service". In fact, "fan service" is a misnomer in this entire conversation, no matter how you cut it. It simply has the wrong connotation.

She's just sitting there blank-faced. In Schierke's case, we're "forced" to look at her butt, which I don't think is a stretch to say is the only thing in the foreground, and then her tiny blushing face.

Actually, the previous page elaborately sets up that moment, which is pretty typical of how Miura sets his jokes up. Schierke, having managed to thwart Isidro's attempts on peak at the ladies bathing, is complaining about how Casca just won't listen to anything. Ivalera tells her to just use magic, but Schierke insists that she can manage everything just fine without it. Here the scene is a continuation of the trials and tribulations of Schierke as a witch prodigy in a city of humans, a world that is foreign to her. That section of the story shows her to be vulnerable in unusual and unexpected ways, while she had been introduced as being a formidable character despite her young age. So formidable that Isidro had felt devalued to worthlessness by comparison. This process serves to humanize us and make the reader emphatize with her, despite her sometimes haughty attitude. It is also a way to show that despite not looking like much, Farnese's contribution to the group did matter.

Anyway, as Schierke is telling Ivalera she can do it, Casca grabs her towel (as Schierke had been doing with hers) and spins her around in a funny way. Now we have a very classic "dramatic sequence" as Miura does them: we see Schierke fall face first into something (but we don't know what), then we have a shot of her as she turns to admonish Casca, and finally a close up on her face with a sweat drop as she pauses. That last shot is the internal realization of the character that something's wrong. That whole sequence is setting up the following panel, which is the reveal that she's sprawled butt-naked on top of Guts. The panel after that is the light flashing out of the window, then her red-faced self and smoke rising out (from an unknown source). Then there's the close-up of her embarrassed face, her covering herself and finally, charred Guts and his thoughts.

Literally everything in that sequence of panels is designed to serve the purpose of the joke (and of the themes I highlighted above). The fact her butt is at the foreground is meant to reinforce how embarrassing the situation is to her, adding weight to the scene.

In a vacuum I'd still see that panel and think it's something that can only be seen as perverted due to the pose alone, but that's unfair to Miura.

To go back to your comparison with Casca, since Schierke's still a kid, she doesn't have breasts. Therefore her nakedness has to embarrass her differently, and to show her rear-end is logical in that regard (because the front would just not be Ok). You mention the pose, but it's not like she's arching her back or something, she's lifting herself from a prone position because she just fell down.

Man, I never thought I'd ever have to talk so long about this specific panel. That's not exactly what I have in mind when I think of discussing Berserk.

 

[Eluvei]

To go back to your comparison with Casca, since Schierke's still a kid, she doesn't have breasts. Therefore her nakedness has to embarrass her differently, and to show her rear-end is logical in that regard (because the front would just not be Ok). You mention the pose, but it's not like she's arching her back or something, she's lifting herself from a prone position because she just fell down.

You have me convinced that it works as part of the sequence. As a drawing, I still consider that pose a bit "too much" for a child regardless of it being integral to making the sequence work. Like I said in my previous post, this discussion convinced me it's personal and likely cultural, and I regret implying Miura wanted to evoke boners out of perverts.

Man, I never thought I'd ever have to talk so long about this specific panel. That's not exactly what I have in mind when I think of discussing Berserk.

Well I'm sorry about it, but I'm honestly impressed it hadn't come up around here before. Out of the three people I managed to convince to read Berserk, two came to me in what I can describe as disappointment over the panel. So I don't think it's a waste to talk about it, and I really appreciate the thoughtful reply.