Is Griffith just a placeholder?

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I came across a fan prediction on how Berserk would end and part of the prediction is the theory that Griffith was never meant to be the real fifth member of the Godhand. Rather GUTS is meant to be the real leader, and Griffith's just a placeholder, someone who's sole purpose is to motivate Guts to sacrifice everything to defeat him.

Now.....I think there's actually reason to believe that this MIGHT be the case. Think about it.

1.) Right after the Skull Knight rescues Gut and Casca Slan says "It's Impossible to anticipate everything. We ourselves are not gods after all. Or else this too was fated to happen." At this point the Manga zooms in on Void's face, with him neither confirming nor denying Slan's theory. That's....kind of odd. Why not just say "no I didn't see it but it's a minor irrelevance in the long run"?

2.) Guts has a Behelit. He's never kept other Behelits so why this one? It's kind of a Chekov's gun, so it's pretty likely the damn thing's gonna come up again at SOME POINT.

3.) Slan says twice that she's not opposed to Guts joining the Godhand, first when the Count begs for their aid and the second time when Guts encounters her in the Qlippoth forest. Given that Void doesn't outright deny the possibility that Guts and Casca's escape was fated to happen maybe Void feels the same way.

4.) Guts DOES have an inner darkness born out of his desire to kill Griffith (the beast of darkness) and before he met his party he was obsessed with nothing more than killing Apostles and getting revenge, being willing to do unsavory things to achieve it. He's largely getting over it now but what's to say something in the climax might cause it to rear it's ugly head?

5.) A sacrifice that occurs AFTER the worlds have been merged would likely be far more potent than one that occurred before it, and the way humans are being herded into Falconia is rather like how cattle are herded up to be slaughtered.

It would also be the PERFECT kick in the nuts to Griffith. The guy's obsessed with his destiny and achieving his dream. Finding out that he was only ever a pawn to be discarded, and for his hated rival at that would be a magnificent break the haughty moment for him. And if Guts were to actually reject the Godhands offer he would show once and for all that he's a better man than Griffith will ever be, since he had the strength to do the selfless thing whereas Griffith did not.

The prediction is linked here https://www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/pfde80/my_concept_for_berserks_ending/ Check it out.
 

Walter

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I came across a fan prediction on how Berserk would end and part of the prediction is the theory that Griffith was never meant to be the real fifth member of the Godhand. Rather GUTS is meant to be the real leader, and Griffith's just a placeholder, someone who's sole purpose is to motivate Guts to sacrifice everything to defeat him.
Griffith's got a helluva resumé for a placeholder though, don't ya think? Erecting Falconia, initiating Fantasia, bringing the God Hand into the world, securing the throne, unifying the remaining humans voluntarily, becoming the figurehead of a religion. Even before we go into the details supporting this notion, those aren't just "placeholder" roles. Those are the roles of a world leader.

1.) Right after the Skull Knight rescues Gut and Casca Slan says "It's Impossible to anticipate everything. We ourselves are not gods after all. Or else this too was fated to happen." At this point the Manga zooms in on Void's face, with him neither confirming nor denying Slan's theory. That's....kind of odd. Why not just say "no I didn't see it but it's a minor irrelevance in the long run"?
Sure, it's an enigmatic non reply. But it's not evidence of anything. I've always taken it to mean that Void did know something about Skull Knight's likely intervention since he's been known to do so. It can't be used to support anything specific, though.

2.) Guts has a Behelit. He's never kept other Behelits so why this one? It's kind of a Chekov's gun, so it's pretty likely the damn thing's gonna come up again at SOME POINT.
Guts/Puck has a green beherit, which is meant for apostles. Griffith had the crimson beherit, meant for God Hand candidates. And it has already come up since they got to Elfhelm. It just hasn't been used yet.

3.) Slan says twice that she's not opposed to Guts joining the Godhand, first when the Count begs for their aid and the second time when Guts encounters her in the Qlippoth forest. Given that Void doesn't outright deny the possibility that Guts and Casca's escape was fated to happen maybe Void feels the same way.
When Slan says "be among us" she's talking about as an apostle. There's no precedence at all for another God Hand to join the completed group of 5.

4.) Guts DOES have an inner darkness born out of his desire to kill Griffith (the beast of darkness) and before he met his party he was obsessed with nothing more than killing Apostles and getting revenge, being willing to do unsavory things to achieve it. He's largely getting over it now but what's to say something in the climax might cause it to rear it's ugly head?
Griffith/Femto is certainly the primary target and the catalyst for the trauma that led to the creation of the Beast of Darkness, but the beast was created from that entire traumatic chunk of his life, not Griffith specifically. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything about Guts being a potential God Hand member though...?

5.) A sacrifice that occurs AFTER the worlds have been merged would likely be far more potent than one that occurred before it, and the way humans are being herded into Falconia is rather like how cattle are herded up to be slaughtered.
I don't think there's any reason to presume such a ceremony would be more potent. The physical world and the astral world (possibly just a shallow layer of it) have merged, but the sacrifice itself always took place in the astral world. And the function of a sacrificial ceremony is to chain sacrificed souls to the vortex and fill the sacrificer's soul with evil power. That's it. So I'm not getting the "potency" part.

Anyway, to take your larger point and run with it a bit, I guess you're establishing that because humans can be sacrificed and that Guts has a beherit and is angry at Griffith, all of that is enough for Guts to sacrifice the amassed Falconian citizens in a bid to get revenge on Griffith? Well, there are quite a few things that are broken in that idea, but just to pick on a key one: Guts doesn't care enough about them for that to be a valid sacrifice.

For all the other reasons it wouldn't work for Guts to become an apostle (or a God Hand for that matter), I encourage you to check out #2 in our most frequently asked Berserk questions post.

And if Guts were to actually reject the Godhands offer he would show once and for all that he's a better man than Griffith will ever be, since he had the strength to do the selfless thing whereas Griffith did not.
If Guts rejected the offer then... I guess nothing would change? How would that bring any conclusion about? This doesn't feel very well thought out.
 
Griffith's got a helluva resumé for a placeholder though, don't ya think? Erecting Falconia, initiating Fantasia, bringing the God Hand into the world, securing the throne, unifying the remaining humans voluntarily, becoming the figurehead of a religion. Even before we go into the details supporting this notion, those aren't just "placeholder" roles. Those are the roles of a world leader.


Sure, it's an enigmatic non reply. But it's not evidence of anything. I've always taken it to mean that Void did know something about Skull Knight's likely intervention since he's been known to do so. It can't be used to support anything specific, though.


Guts/Puck has a green beherit, which is meant for apostles. Griffith had the crimson beherit, meant for God Hand candidates. And it has already come up since they got to Elfhelm. It just hasn't been used yet.


When Slan says "be among us" she's talking about as an apostle. There's no precedence at all for another God Hand to join the completed group of 5.


Griffith/Femto is certainly the primary target and the catalyst for the trauma that led to the creation of the Beast of Darkness, but the beast was created from that entire traumatic chunk of his life, not Griffith specifically. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything about Guts being a potential God Hand member though...?


I don't think there's any reason to presume such a ceremony would be more potent. The physical world and the astral world (possibly just a shallow layer of it) have merged, but the sacrifice itself always took place in the astral world. And the function of a sacrificial ceremony is to chain sacrificed souls to the vortex and fill the sacrificer's soul with evil power. That's it. So I'm not getting the "potency" part.

Anyway, to take your larger point and run with it a bit, I guess you're establishing that because humans can be sacrificed and that Guts has a beherit and is angry at Griffith, all of that is enough for Guts to sacrifice the amassed Falconian citizens in a bid to get revenge on Griffith? Well, there are quite a few things that are broken in that idea, but just to pick on a key one: Guts doesn't care enough about them for that to be a valid sacrifice.

For all the other reasons it wouldn't work for Guts to become an apostle (or a God Hand for that matter), I encourage you to check out #2 in our most frequently asked Berserk questions post.


If Guts rejected the offer then... I guess nothing would change? How would that bring any conclusion about? This doesn't feel very well thought out.
Maybe, but I'm of the opinion that at the very least Guts is going to have a moment of choice where he has to choose to give into his temptation for revenge or not. I doubt he'd BECOME an apostle but he probably WILL be tempted. I also think that Griffith learning he was only ever a pawn, as well as seeing that Guts is a better man than he will ever be, would be a MAJOR kick in the nuts. The guy's obsessed with destiny and his dream so knowing his "destiny" was just a placeholder would destroy his ego. And if guts were in the same space he was but makes a better choice it would be the ultimate way of saying "I'm a better man than you will ever be."

In any case this was all in the context of Dogson's theory about how it would end overall.

Basically the following happens

1.) The Apostles would attack Elfheim, and at least a few of Guts' party members would die. The apostles would be repulsed but this would make Guts and Casca realize that they can't just sit idly by. Griffith will never let them be in peace.

2.) To this end they start gathering a resistance. SIlat and the Bakiraka would be there, but there would also be more ambiguous groups (like Tudor) for instance.

3.) As all of this is going on Griffith is sending apostles after them. They die, but they keep mentioning "the final feast".

4.) Griffith, Guts and Casca have another meeting on the eve of battle. Unlike the Hill of Swords Guts and Casca hold their own and are able to look Griffith in the eye. Griffith is furious that they've risen above what he did to them and so decides to break them all over again.

5.) Final battle commences. Guts' companions fight Griffith's New Band of the Hawk and Guts and Griffith face off. Guts overpowers Griffith and breaks his cavalry sword, which so enrages Griffith that he drops the act and reveals his true form in front of everyone.

6.) Griffith overpowers Guts and forces him to watch as his companions die, before killing the moonlight boy. This prompts Guts to activate the Behelit.

7.) It's at THIS Point that the Godhand make their pitch, telling Guts that the only way he'll ever gain the strength to defeat Femto is if he sacrifices everyone. As all of this is going on Griffith is desperately trying to break through the barrier.

8.) Griffith breaks through, he and Guts lock eyes....and Guts tells the godhand to go to hell.

9.) Because the apostles need Guts' permission to begin the final feast they get impatient and turn on each other, slaughtering each other while the Godhand can only look on in shock.

10.) Guts and Griffith engage in round 2, but Griffith is so broken by the realization that he was just a patsy and that Guts is better than him that he becomes erratic and sloppy allowing Guts to cripple him. He than stands aside and lets Casca kill him.

The story ends in a mixed way. The godhand are still active but their plans have been set back millennia. They even had a scene of Theresia meeting Guts years later and the manga would end with her debating whether or not to kill him.

As a rough outline I think it's interesting.

I also remember that Muira when asked about the endgame of the Godhand said "the key is void." The kanji he used means "empty space" so it could be the Godhand want to destroy humanity entirely (though again this is up in the air.)
 
I agree with the reply Walter gave.
Actually, even without counting the absurdity and implausibility of this, how would Guts becoming a God Hand (and necessarily have Casca and everyone in his own group sacrificed and murdered) bring any sense of revenge to Guts or even hurt Griffith at all? The idea of Griffith being "a placeholder" means that the other God Hand members would welcome Guts and just remove Griffith from his position? How would that even work?
For real, I can't understand how people come up with theories like these.

But anyway, I wanted to ask one thing:
The physical world and the astral world (possibly just a shallow layer of it) have merged, but the sacrifice itself always took place in the astral world. And the function of a sacrificial ceremony is to chain sacrificed souls to the vortex and fill the sacrificer's soul with evil power.
Considering these fact, now that the physical and astral world (to some extent at least) have merged, hypothetically speaking, how would a new sacrificial ceremony look like? Would it still be hidden to outsiders like it happened at the Eclipse and in Black Swordsman arc (with that a spiral / clouds thing) or it would be visible to outsiders?
 

Walter

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Staff member
Well, it’s not even your idea so I’ll try and avoid debating the specifics. It’s a strange predicament to make you defend someone else’s assertions.

It sounds like a fairly complicated fan notion intended to bring closure, but they’re trying to make specific guesses at things we never had the full picture for. As a result, it doesn’t really work. I imagine it probably resonated emotionally with a few fans because it's more like reading a story than an explanation for how each thing would actually occur in the context of the existing story.

Anyway you seem more focused on Guts’ rejection of the offer being the thing that ultimately makes Griffith’s plans crumble. But no, for all the reasons I’ve already said it doesn’t sound very plausible at all. The fundamental problem is that causality was shaped to benefit the God Hand’s plan. Beherits in particular are items closely controlled by the Idea of Evil, and their time of activation is all part of its complex plan. It would be inconsistent (and nonsensical) for a sacrificial ceremony to be initiated that could knock off one of their own, “setting back their plan millennia.” Furthermore, even if such an unprecedented thing happened, as soon as Guts rejected the offer the apostles could still swoop in and get their meal. So I don’t see how it would be very satisfying for readers. Unless they’re all supposed to be dead after killing each other? Err… Probably not, right ?

I also remember that Muira when asked about the endgame of the Godhand said "the key is void." The kanji he used means "empty space" so it could be the Godhand want to destroy humanity entirely (though again this is up in the air.)
Actually he used the katakana for Void's name (ボイド), not a kanji for some generic reference to "a void." So there's no reason to mistake his meaning.

Considering these fact, now that the physical and astral world (to some extent at least) have merged, hypothetically speaking, how would a new sacrificial ceremony look like? Would it still be hidden to outsiders like it happened at the Eclipse and in Black Swordsman arc (with that a spiral / clouds thing) or it would be visible to outsiders?
I dunno. We can presume that the whirlwind was there to begin with because of the rift between the physical world and the astral world. But it also serves as a kind of impassable wall (well, for most people!), which is a tidy way of obstructing any interferences. I think a bigger question is: were there even plans to have another sacrificial ceremony post-merging? I tend not to think so.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
It's not where the series is going. I think the main problem I have with "Guts rejecting the God Hand" theory is that it sounds far too basic for Berserk like Guts is a character on a tv sitcom rejecting a gang.
 
Well, it’s not even your idea so I’ll try and avoid debating the specifics. It’s a strange predicament to make you defend someone else’s assertions.

It sounds like a fairly complicated fan notion intended to bring closure, but they’re trying to make specific guesses at things we never had the full picture for. As a result, it doesn’t really work. I imagine it probably resonated emotionally with a few fans because it's more like reading a story than an explanation for how each thing would actually occur in the context of the existing story.

Anyway you seem more focused on Guts’ rejection of the offer being the thing that ultimately makes Griffith’s plans crumble. But no, for all the reasons I’ve already said it doesn’t sound very plausible at all. The fundamental problem is that causality was shaped to benefit the God Hand’s plan. Beherits in particular are items closely controlled by the Idea of Evil, and their time of activation is all part of its complex plan. It would be inconsistent (and nonsensical) for a sacrificial ceremony to be initiated that could knock off one of their own, “setting back their plan millennia.” Furthermore, even if such an unprecedented thing happened, as soon as Guts rejected the offer the apostles could still swoop in and get their meal. So I don’t see how it would be very satisfying for readers. Unless they’re all supposed to be dead after killing each other? Err… Probably not, right ?


Actually he used the katakana for Void's name (ボイド), not a kanji for some generic reference to "a void." So there's no reason to mistake his meaning.


I dunno. We can presume that the whirlwind was there to begin with because of the rift between the physical world and the astral world. But it also serves as a kind of impassable wall (well, for most people!), which is a tidy way of obstructing any interferences. I think a bigger question is: were there even plans to have another sacrificial ceremony post-merging? I tend not to think so.
Eh maybe it is. I won't deny that I want Griffith to get his comeuppance after everything he's done, and if it really doesn't get continued this theory at least allows me to have a head canon where Griffith got what he deserved. I can at least think Guts will face a temptation of SOME kind at the very least; the Beast of Darkness is still there and I'd be shocked if it didn't rear it's ugly head again at some point in the game
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Eh maybe it is. I won't deny that I want Griffith to get his comeuppance after everything he's done, and if it really doesn't get continued this theory at least allows me to have a head canon where Griffith got what he deserved.

There's never been any doubt that Femto would get what he deserves in the end. Which is a full swing of the Dragon Slayer to the face. That ridiculous theory isn't necessary for you to imagine that. Besides the many impossibilities Walter already pointed out, you should realize it's just a really lame idea that's unfaithful both to Guts and to Femto's characters. You can do better than that with your own imagination.

I can at least think Guts will face a temptation of SOME kind at the very least; the Beast of Darkness is still there and I'd be shocked if it didn't rear it's ugly head again at some point in the game

The Beast of Darkness is a manifestation of Guts' trauma. The compulsion it has represented so far isn't for Guts to become a minion of the God Hand or attempt to join them, it is for him to abandon himself fully to his burning desire for revenge, casting away everything else in the process in a self-destructive spiral. As for him rejecting an actual offer, see what he tells Ganishka in volume 31.

Going forward, it's likely the Beast of Darkness would have been part of Guts' dilemma regarding his son: on one side the guilt of his past conduct and desire to save him, and on the other the thirst for revenge against Griffith and the need to prevent him from achieving his goals. Could the two things be achieved at once? You can imagine that for yourself, but my personal belief is that Guts would have managed to use the Beast of Darkness productively, that together with Casca and his friends they would have saved their son, and that the boy would have then helped him put an end to Femto.
 
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