What was Griffith for Guts during the Golden Age arc?

[MonkeydLuffy]

I have been rereading and thinking about the Golden age arc alot lately. One of the things i have though about is what Griffith meant to Guts. There is some panels that indicate that Guts saw Griffith in the same light as Gambino ( someone he wanted validation from). But im not quite sure. It also seems that he saw him as a good friend or rather his first friend. Thats why Guts overhearing the conversation between Griffith and Charlotte hurt him so much. There is also some people that claim that Guts was in love with Griffith, given how some people interpret homoerotic undertones in their relationship and dialogues. its such a complicated bond.Has Miura given any comments to their relationships in interviews?
So what do you guys think?

 

[Aazealh]

Guts certainly wanted Griffith to respect and appreciate him, but that doesn't mean he was like Gambino (his father figure) to him. It's just a pretty natural thing to expect from someone you look up to and consider your best friend. What's ironic about this whole affair is that what Griffith told Charlotte at the fountain didn't actually reflect how he felt about Guts. He did respect and value him, even though he might have been lying to himself about it.

And in turn, these words prompted Guts to leave because he thought he had to seek something for himself in order to prove his worth in Griffith's eyes, despite the fact he felt at home in the Band of the Falcon. It was all a big waste prompted by Griffith's flawed view of the world, or you could say his coping mechanism to insulate himself emotionally from the pain of watching his soldiers die (among other things he had to endure). In any case, this was also all meant to be. His rise and fall were just steps on the way to becoming Femto.

There is also some people that claim that Guts was in love with Griffith

Someone posted a similar thread last year, so I will copy you my response.

Nothing in the manga supports that idea. Guts' feelings toward Griffith are clearly conveyed throughout the Golden Age as someone he greatly respects and even idealizes a bit, and with whom he develops a close friendship. In parallel, he progressively gets closer to Casca and eventually a true romance blooms between them. You know, generally-speaking, having close friends of the same gender doesn't mean you're gay or bi.

And here is what I said about Griffith's feelings towards Guts, which I think will answer some of your other questions.

Griffith's feelings towards Guts are ambiguous, and that's on purpose. I think boiling it down to "he must have been in love with him" is overly simplistic, and is doing you a disservice as far as your understanding of the character goes.

From Kentarou Miura's interviews, we know their relationship was modeled on the one he had with his best friend in high school. It was a mix of rivalry and friendship. Of course it's heightened and dramatized in the manga, and the story itself is unrelated, but my point is that the core of it was that: close friendship and rivalry.

In the story, Griffith's reason for wanting Guts in his mercenary band is very practical right from the start: he's an exceptional fighter. Griffith recognizes that and goes to great lengths to ensure Guts fights for him. He comes to rely on him greatly, to the point that in the end, he'd rather kill him than let him leave his grasp. In that sense, Guts was the ace he always had up his sleeve, which also helped him be more at ease psychologically as he tried to accomplish the impossible: rising from a nobody to a king. That's partly why their second duel (and him losing) hit him so hard, as Casca explains to Guts at the waterfall.

The two of them also develop a close bond, and that can be seen as an exception in Griffith's personal philosophy. As he tells Charlotte at the fountain, he doesn't view his mercenaries as his friends, because a true friend has to be his equal. Needless to say, this has a huge impact on Guts, and is what prompts him to leave the band later on. But I think it's shown Griffith did see Guts as a friend regardless of what he said about it, and Guts' emancipation made Griffith see him as a rival as well.

The two aspects above are shown for example when Griffith tasks Guts with "dirty work" that he wouldn't want the rest of his troops to know about, and then (after the queen's death) asks him if his opinion of him is lessened because of it. They can also explain instances where Griffith's behavior is described as "unreasonable" by the characters, like when he personally went to rescue Guts. It's not actually shocking at all that he'd rush to save his friend (and best soldier). Same for Griffith's deranged state of mind after his year of torture. He (wrongly) blames Guts for what happened to him but can't quite come to hate him, instead obsessing over him.

He describes the mix of emotions he feels in volume 10: "hatred, friendship, jealousy, emptiness, frustration, affection, sorrow, pain, hunger..." We see them at play during and after the rescue, where he seems to be confused himself about what he feels at times (he's half-mad at that point). He tries to strangle him, is jealous that he got together with Casca (someone he never cared about romantically), yet he tries to stop his fall when the hand rises during the Eclipse. So it's all a mess, but you'll notice there's no "love" listed in there. And, needless to say, Griffith never shows any romantic disposition towards Guts when they're together (physical or emotional).

So why the ambiguity then? It's really all contained in untold moments. The way he tells him that he'll make him his (which prompts Guts to ask if he's gay, and Griffith to show embarrassment), the jealousy Casca feels towards him, the way he gets to rely on him more and more, takes risks for him, and finally his obsession with him after the year of torture, and what he says when he sacrifices the Band of the Falcon: "only you made me forget my dream". All of this paints a picture where a reader can ask themselves "was it really just an extremely powerful mix of friendship and rivalry or was there more there?"

I think the story and character work perfectly well with that interpretation, that it was the kind of once-in-a-lifetime friendship some people have, mixed with the sort of rivalry that has been known to consume men whole. But I also think Miura, partly through his shoujo manga influences, deliberately made it ambiguous enough that one can wonder if there wasn't yet another kind of feeling added to the mix. One of a romantic nature, although not sexual. However, do note that even if you take it as such, it doesn't negate the rest. Lastly, I believe it's important to remember that while Guts held a special place among his men, Griffith did sacrifice all of the band, which I think says a lot about how he actually felt about everyone in the end.

 

[MonkeydLuffy]

Guts certainly wanted Griffith to respect and appreciate him, but that doesn't mean he was like Gambino (his father figure) to him. It's just a pretty natural thing to expect from someone you look up to and consider your best friend. What's ironic about this whole affair is that what Griffith told Charlotte at the fountain didn't actually reflect how he felt about Guts. He did respect and value him, even though he might have been lying to himself about it.

And in turn, these words prompted Guts to leave because he thought he had to seek something for himself in order to prove his worth in Griffith's eyes, despite the fact he felt at home in the Band of the Falcon. It was all a big waste prompted by Griffith's flawed view of the world, or you could say his coping mechanism to insulate himself emotionally from the pain of watching his soldiers die (among other things he had to endure). In any case, this was also all meant to be. His rise and fall were just steps on the way to becoming Femto.



Someone posted a similar thread last year, so I will copy you my response.



And here is what I said about Griffith's feelings towards Guts, which I think will answer some of your other questions.

Thank you. I didn’t mean that Guts viewed Griffith as a father figure but that Guts has daddy issues because of gambino. He didn’t think someone could care about him for reasons other than money or his power. ( Gambino hated Guts but kept him around because of his talent and he earned Gambino money)So Guts isolated himself after he left Gambinos band. Until he met the Band of the hawks and Griffith. I think Griffith could relate to Guts in a way and knew exactly what strings to pull to get him under control. Guts didn’t feel wanted after Gambino incident and Griffith says to Guts “I want you”After time They grew closer and closer.

Then Guts asked Griffith why he saved him from Zodd even risking his life in doing so. ( Guts didn’t think anyone could care about him genuinely without monetary reasons) so when Griffith said he doesn’t have a reason Guts was shocked and felt he finally had someone he could trust and that actually saw him as a friend. That’s why he pledged his sword to him on the rooftop( where there is a callback to gambino in guts thougts moments before).So when Griffith said that none of them was his friends and that they would have to have been his equals Guts was crushed because his insecurity started to form again. He felt that Griffith didn’t like him after all and that he was just a tool in Griffiths eyes ( which isn’t true because Griffith saw Guts as a friend).

Then he felt the same way he felt after Gambino said he never liked him. He didn’t want to fight for Griffith anymore because he felt looked down upon. It’s his insecurities showing. He needs to find his purpose like after he got hunted by Gambinos men and fought the wolves he asked himself: What now?I think Guts saw how Griffith was loved by everyone including Casca( which he at this point had some romantic feelings for). Guts also wanted to be loved, but that he wasn’t good enough to be loved so he set out to become Griffiths equal. He didn’t feel he was good enough for Casca, he said that Casca had her eyes set on Griffith so he couldn’t be with her. Even thought Casca actually liked Guts she just didn’t realize it yet.

So for Guts Griffith wasn’t just an ordinary friend, he was probably the first person person (other than the girl who found guts) who actually cared about him as a person and without having a specific reason to. His first friend ever.

For Griffith Guts was also his first friend ever. Griffith related to Guts on a deep level and Guts didn’t treat Griffith like he was a king like the rest of the band did. Guts treated him like a normal person, like his friend. At first I think Griffith realized that Guts was super strong and that’s why he wanted him to join initially, but they grew closer over time and the friendship got stronger and stronger until it threatened his dream.I think Griffith didn’t have friends growing up so his dream was his escape from loneliness or maybe the dream made him friendless ( I’m not quite sure) but either way he didn’t realize that friends is more important than your dream. He was like a child in some aspects. He was also very possessive of Guts because he meant a lot to him as he was the only one who Griffith felt a connection to. So when Guts left it destroyed Griffiths ego, his control and his heart. So he used his dream as a “coping mechanism” of some sort that’s why he wanted to rush it with Charlotte. And it cost him everything in the end. And he blamed Guts because he’s a childish douchebag.

I don’t think romance had anything to do with this relationship. Friendship can be just as deep and meaningful as a romantic relationship or even more. I’m not sure if I’m right, I could be way off but this is my two cents after thinking about it all night:)

 

[Aazealh]

I didn’t mean that Guts viewed Griffith as a father figure but that Guts has daddy issues because of gambino. He didn’t think someone could care about him for reasons other than money or his power. ( Gambino hated Guts but kept him around because of his talent and he earned Gambino money)So Guts isolated himself after he left Gambinos band.

I think Guts and Gambino's relationship is more complicated and nuanced than what you describe here. Gambino didn't have to take care of him but did so anyway, and not just because he earned him money or helped around. At the same time he wasn't a loving father by any means, and by the end his injury and alcoholism drove him to madness. He's the embodiment of a father with whom you only have a couple of good memories (and a lot of bad ones), but who you somehow can't get yourself to hate.

I think Griffith could relate to Guts in a way and knew exactly what strings to pull to get him under control. Guts didn’t feel wanted after Gambino incident and Griffith says to Guts “I want you”After time They grew closer and closer.

Then Guts asked Griffith why he saved him from Zodd even risking his life in doing so. ( Guts didn’t think anyone could care about him genuinely without monetary reasons) so when Griffith said he doesn’t have a reason Guts was shocked and felt he finally had someone he could trust and that actually saw him as a friend. That’s why he pledged his sword to him on the rooftop( where there is a callback to gambino in guts thougts moments before).

The way you describe their relationship doesn't do either character justice. You portray Guts as an emotionally needy person that's easy to manipulate and Griffith as a Machiavellian deceiver, but that's not borne by the manga. Guts isn't convinced by the fact Griffith tells him he wants him, he has to be physically submitted before he reluctantly agrees to join. And it's only afterwards, when he's seen how different the Band of the Falcon is and after Griffith tells him of his grand ambition, that he really decides to stay. It's motivated not just by all that but also by the realization that he'd been aimless for the past four years, and he intends for it to be temporary. It's really a lot more rational than you make it out to be.

Similarly, Guts isn't "shocked" when Griffith tells him he doesn't need a reason to risk his life for him in volume 5, he's more embarrassed if anything. It does make him reflect that he will fight for Griffith's sake for the time being, but it's more of a reiteration than a new resolve. And there is no callback to Gambino before that scene. But yes, it deepens the feeling that Griffith isn't just his boss but also a friend.

So when Griffith said that none of them was his friends and that they would have to have been his equals Guts was crushed because his insecurity started to form again. He felt that Griffith didn’t like him after all and that he was just a tool in Griffiths eyes

Again, this seems like an overly simplistic view of things. Guts is never shown to be insecure. He's actually quite confident and easygoing. But he's shocked by what Griffith says to Charlotte. I think that's pretty normal. It makes him realize he wants Griffith to view him as an equal, not as someone who's inherently inferior on account of being a subordinate.

Then he felt the same way he felt after Gambino said he never liked him. He didn’t want to fight for Griffith anymore because he felt looked down upon. It’s his insecurities showing.

This isn't what is shown and told to us in the manga. I don't think it makes sense to equate his desire to be seen as an equal by Griffith to his feelings towards his father, and I don't think wanting your friend to respect you makes you insecure. It's really a weird way to frame things, to be honest.

I think Guts saw how Griffith was loved by everyone including Casca( which he at this point had some romantic feelings for). Guts also wanted to be loved, but that he wasn’t good enough to be loved so he set out to become Griffiths equal. He didn’t feel he was good enough for Casca, he said that Casca had her eyes set on Griffith so he couldn’t be with her. Even thought Casca actually liked Guts she just didn’t realize it yet.

This really doesn't reflect what's in the manga, and you're conflating a whole bunch of things here by bringing up Casca. Guts left in volume 8 because he was inspired by Griffith and, following his example, wanted to find something for himself. He didn't want Griffith to look down on him; he wanted to be his equal. It's got nothing to do with "deserving to be loved". I don't know where you got that stuff from, but it feels like it's your own life experience coloring the way you see the story.

And while Guts wasn't confident enough to ask Casca to come with him, the real reason is the last thing he tells Judo: that he wants to focus on himself for the time being. For what it's worth, I think he was right and that if he'd asked Casca to come with him at that specific time, she probably would have turned him down, even though she would have been heart-wrenched to do so. Her loyalty to Griffith and the band as a whole was too strong to leave so early.

Griffith related to Guts on a deep level and Guts didn’t treat Griffith like he was a king like the rest of the band did.

I don't think Griffith related to Guts all that much, not sure why you think so. And Guts certainly recognized that Griffith was special, same as the others. They grew to have a special relationship and Griffith made him his confidant and tasked him with dirty jobs, but it's not like the other commanders didn't act familiarly with Griffith. Again, I feel like the story is more nuanced than you give it credit for.

At first I think Griffith realized that Guts was super strong and that’s why he wanted him to join initially, but they grew closer over time and the friendship got stronger and stronger until it threatened his dream.

This isn't what happened. Griffith was distraught that Guts, his best asset and the ace-up-his-sleeve, not only left his grasp but soundly defeated him, and did so in front of the others. It was a blow to his self-esteem. He moved on the princess as a result because he had something to prove to himself. It was a rash move, but it would have worked... if only a servant hadn't found out and reported it. Only then, as he was rotting in jail, did he start obsessing about Guts, rationalizing that it was all his fault. And after a year of torture, Guts was all that kept him going, "shining brightly" in his mind, to the point that his dream had grown dull by comparison. That's what it means that Guts "made him forget his dream".

I think Griffith didn’t have friends growing up so his dream was his escape from loneliness or maybe the dream made him friendless ( I’m not quite sure) but either way he didn’t realize that friends is more important than your dream.

Griffith is shown having friends as a kid in volume 10 when he thinks back to his youth. We also know that his soldiers dying, notably that young boy, led to him closing his heart (or at least trying to) because he felt he had to if he wanted to achieve his dream. There's no question how he got to that point.

He was also very possessive of Guts because he meant a lot to him as he was the only one who Griffith felt a connection to.

Nothing supports the idea that Guts "was the only one who Griffith felt a connection to". Like I told you last time, in the end Griffith sacrificed everyone, not just Guts. He was special among his soldiers, but he was still one among many.

And I say "like I told you last time" because I realized you're @Snoken, who made the similar thread a few months ago, and are posting using dual accounts. I don't know why you're doing it, but this is against our rules and one of these accounts will need to be deactivated. You can PM me to let me know which one to shut down.