China vs Taiwan

[Griffith]

:)

 

[xechnao]

If there is no need to do it in secret, things get very much easier, and e-mail&web have proven to be outstandingly useful (surprise!) to get people informed about things. Or did you see TV ads for those anti-war demonstrations before gulf war II? (OK, doubly-bad example since we all know how much they managed to actually stop the "alliance" and overthrowing Saddam wasn't completely an evil thing to do...) But at least it made the point that large amount of people across the world are NOT for this war, regardless what the leaders are saying.

Agreed...but please tell me another country that people weren't allowed to demonstrate...Didn't they pro in China or other parts of the world perhaps?

This is not useless.

I agree with you. And actually I am an active protester. I travelled to Genova to manifestate against G8 and I also attended the manifestations against war here, at Rome. But what I am saying is that this didn't change in the end so much either. Australia and Japan went on despite public resentment. Only in Spain it did, yes, this is true but I think this happened due to the fact that people really suffered (massive terrorist attack) in conjuction with a very stupid political maneuver the ex goverment did that had its weight exactly because of the shock the whole country underwent because of the terrorist attack.

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

If there is no need to do it in secret, things get very much easier, and e-mail&web have proven to be outstandingly useful (surprise!) to get people informed about things. Or did you see TV ads for those anti-war demonstrations before gulf war II? (OK, doubly-bad example since we all know how much they managed to actually stop the "alliance" and overthrowing Saddam wasn't completely an evil thing to do...) But at least it made the point that large amount of people across the world are NOT for this war, regardless what the leaders are saying.

I didnt mean it in the literal term about the 1 single man who works in the smelt factory. It was just a way to describe someone who is in no means a strong political figure but trys to start something for the benefit of his country.

Although at sometimes I wish the media wasnt so damn forceful and every where. Try to imagine how WW2 would be percieved as if they had the same means of information transfer and coverage as we do now. I think it would some how get twisted so that us (The alliance) were the war mongers and what not.

 

[xechnao]

Although at sometimes I wish the media wasnt so damn forceful and every where.

On the contrary I do want much more (when it doesn't come to privacy of course). People have a right to know. Showing half the thing can be more easily manipulative than not showing nothing at all and I am contrary from having people be manipulated by a few.

Try to imagine how WW2 would be percieved as if they had the same means of information transfer and coverage as we do now. I think it would some how get twisted so that us (The alliance) were the war mongers and what not.

If media were how they are today, IMO, WWII wouldn't have been the way it did -it would have been much less destructible and catastrophic and that's a good thing.

 

[Griffith]

If media were how they are today, IMO, WWII wouldn't have been the way it did -it would have been much less destructible and catastrophic and that's a good thing.

Yeah, or we could be typing in German right now. ;D

 

[ShinHell9]

Yeah, or we could be typing in German right now. ;D

I'd say Japanese, unless you live in europe, then you'd be speakin the German.

Yet I understand and agree with xech's original point, though I'm quite burned out and didn't finish it what I think he's trying to say is that no one person has a voice alone, just as the way they say voting for a 3rd party candidate is throwing your vote away. Most of those who've proved to change a country deeply or the world even were a part of some group. In fact as of now I can't think of anyone who's changed the world or the country without having a large enough group of support. The reason that I feel people still protest is because you're never going to get some perfected government, and as time progresses so does ideals, and sure its great that we're not freezing to death in syberia for tagging no war for oil or whatever on a building, but the purpose of the democratic process as I remeber it was to protest when you felt there was any problem, if you're just going to be a yes man to the government all the time it may send progress back a couple of steps instead of ahead. If what xech is trying to say is that one person alone, people without a united group can't make a difference in the government or country or world or whatever, I support his argument because the point of Democracy is majority rules.

 

[Griffith]

No, one person, or idea for that matter, can be the catalyst for change.

Furthermore, saying one person can't change "the World" because they need the support of a group is arbitrary and a paradox, since a society is, by definition, a group.

Is this so complicated?

I'd say Japanese.

Nah.

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

Hey Xech quick question. Do you think the china people are just in what they are doing, rioting, throwing rocks and other things at all things Japanese, beating up japanese people, since the releace of this book? Also, its kinda funny how the Chinese government isnt doing a whole lot to stop it. Sure they put up the standard riot police but I think its just a front. :-\

What do you think?

 

[Griffith]

Hey Xech quick question. Do you think the china people are just in what they are doing, rioting, throwing rocks and other things at all things Japanese, beating up japanese people, since the releace of this book? Also, its kinda funny how the Chinese government isnt doing a whole lot to stop it. Sure they put up the standard riot police but I think its just a front. :-\

What do you think?

Didn't you know? They're just protesting historical inaccuracy. ;D

 

[xechnao]

No, one person, or idea for that matter, can be the catalyst for change.

I don't disagree with this. Catalyst is a well chosen word that I could agree with
But it should remain there.

Yeah, or we could be typing in German right now. ;D

Hypothetically speaking about the conclusion of the war I don't see any direct connection about the media we are talking about and the chances of the result of the conclusion in favor of one side or the other.
It is just a blatant hypothesis, not different than saying that yes, Germany had chances to win in the end even if media were the way it actually was.

Hey Xech quick question. Do you think the china people are just in what they are doing, rioting, throwing rocks and other things at all things Japanese, beating up japanese people, since the releace of this book? Also, its kinda funny how the Chinese government isnt doing a whole lot to stop it. Sure they put up the standard riot police but I think its just a front.  :-\ 

What do you think?

I think the way you present this is exageratted, but living in Japan I understand that you could be influenced, although I find this happening sad. They beat two guys in a pub, this has happened everywhere, and how could anyway police have prevented this one? I would blame Japaneese media of using the event towards manipolating Japaneese sentiment against China.
About the riot, the same thing. They threw a stone at the window: now don't tell me that this is something so extraordrinary. It has happened at least here, in Europe many times
I am familiar how media work and use these kind of stuff because we live a similar situation here among Greece and Turkey.
PS: Remember SARS outbreak? It was presented like the new doom coming from China -sm on par with AIDS-, while it wasn't such a big deal in the end, wasn't it?

On a side note, I am not saying that media shouldn't report what's happening. Of course they should do so as I said before. But they should report everything, respecting the balance of the real picture everywhere. I don't like manipolation and creation of stories made out of showing half the picture. 

 

[Miyu]

We were talking about Taiwan's independence movement and I just said that this is not the thing today. It is not semi-old driven nationalism but diplomatic, political and economic games of the very modern situation (talking about 2000, 2004 etch). 

What I find funny about this post is how you state that Taiwan does have political reasons behind it's current aversion to China.  Which was one of the things you claimed was

This is one of the most out of reality history remarks I' ve ever heard

I was talking about reasons why Taiwan and China are so different, not necessarily the current Taiwanese Independence Movement.  But setting that aside, yes the current political party in Taiwan doesn't want to be reclaimed by China for those above reasons, but the origin of these tensions is the initial migration Taiwan and the events that happened thereafter.  I highly doubt that the current political administration didn't forget how different the two countries have developed over the years.  What Taiwan's current administration is doing is just trying to assert themselves more as a independent country.  The previous administration initially wanted to be recognized as well when they first formed. Same principle, different time.

Regardless of the arguments over historical and political motivations for how things have culminated (cause frankly after looking at how this thread has blown up, this argument could last forever), the thing that worries me most about the entire situation is China taking Taiwan by force.  It's certainly no secret that China has been building up its arms and they still are:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45056-2005Apr11.html  I'm not claiming to really agree with what China or Taiwan is doing, but my bottom line main concern is that China not start a war over Taiwan.    Unfortunately, with the current President of Taiwan almost hoping for independence and China beefing up its army, a nice quiet few years between Taiwan and China do not seem likely.

 

[Griffith]

I don't disagree with this. Catalyst is a well chosen word that I could agree with
But it should remain there.

Yes, let's remain where we agree and have a picnic to celebrate.

Hypothetically speaking about the conclusion of the war I don't see any direct connection about the media we are talking about and the chances of the result of the conclusion in favor of one side or the other.
It is just a blatant hypothesis, not different than saying that yes, Germany had chances to win in the end even if media were the way it actually was.

It could go both ways, but in general the media worked in favor of war lets say, isn't this what you were saying as well?

 

[xechnao]

I was talking about reasons why Taiwan and China are so different, not necessarily the current Taiwanese Independence Movement.

Are they? Being next to a billion speaking the same language?

 

But setting that aside, yes the current political party in Taiwan doesn't want to be reclaimed by China for those above reasons,
but the origin of these tensions is the initial migration Taiwan and the events that happened thereafter.

Running more back than necessary doesn't make much sense. WWII was a reason too and conquest by Japan, using your logic

  I highly doubt that the current political administration didn't forget how different the two countries have developed over the years. 

They change all the time their politics. On a side note, even China has developed differently over the years, isn't it?

What Taiwan's current administration is doing is just trying to assert themselves more as a independent country.  The previous administration initially wanted to be recognized as well when they first formed.  Same principle, different time.

There are economic games behind, those are the cause these games. Stuff like UN and economic deals positions.

Regardless of the arguments over historical and political motivations for how things have culminated (cause frankly after looking at how this thread has blown up, this argument could last forever), the thing that worries me most about the entire situation is China taking Taiwan by force.  It's certainly no secret that China has been building up its arms and they still are:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45056-2005Apr11.html  I'm not claiming to really agree with what China or Taiwan is doing, but my bottom line main concern is that China not start a war over Taiwan.    Unfortunately, with the current President of Taiwan almost hoping for independence and China beefing up its army, a nice quiet few years between Taiwan and China do not seem likely.

Don't worry. Taiwan will not let this happen. They are not that stupid. If China invaded, Taiwan would suffer so much, the whole independence movement game, it just ain't worth it.
Besides, the best chance they have will be the Olympic games. You will see, that time come that nothing will happen.

It could go both ways, but in general the media worked in favor of war lets say, isn't this what you were saying as well?

I was saying what you are saying on the beginning of your sentence.
Now, if media worked that time in favor of war, this is true and well known, considering how propaganda was made and what a big role did play.
Now, if media and the situation were like they are today, I think it would have been the opposite (inihibit the extension of war-time destructive situations ).

 

[Aazealh]

Are they? Being next to a billion speaking the same language?

Actually, there are many forms of Chinese (and over 50 dialects), and people from different regions can't understand each others orally, they need to write to communicate. Just some bit of information in a sea of tedious arguments.

 

[xechnao]

Actually, there are many forms of Chinese (and over 50 dialects), and people from different regions can't understand each others orally, they need to write to communicate. Just some bit of information in a sea of tedious arguments.

Yes, I know, this is true. In Italy btw there is a similar situation on dialects (although smoother). Spain also has a problem of the kind: Basks speak a totally different language than Catalans. Nevertheless China has been ruled as a whole for thousands of years (its the longest lived most prosperous empire and civilization).
What can I say. A sea of tedious arguments indeed. ;D

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

I think the way you present this is exaggerated, but living in Japan I understand that you could be influenced, although I find this happening sad. They beat two guys in a pub, this has happened everywhere, and how could anyway police have prevented this one? I would blame Japanese media of using the event towards manipulating Japanese sentiment against China.
About the riot, the same thing. They threw a stone at the window: now don't tell me that this is something so extraordinary. It has happened at least here, in Europe many times
I am familiar how media work and use these kind of stuff because we live a similar situation here among Greece and Turkey.
PS: Remember SARS outbreak? It was presented like the new doom coming from China -sm on par with AIDS-, while it wasn't such a big deal in the end, wasn't it?

On a side note, I am not saying that media shouldn't report what's happening. Of course they should do so as I said before. But they should report everything, respecting the balance of the real picture everywhere. I don't like manipolation and creation of stories made out of showing half the picture. 

Actually I'm going to disagree with you here. The media here in Japan is not very censored. The reason why I say this is because here in Okinawa there are great amounts of tension and hate between a good portion of the islands inhabitants and the current American forces. The news though does not go on any biased side and reports both the good things and the bad side of the American forces. Also when they show live video feed of 10,000 + angry china men marching past the Japanese embassy and they are all throwing rocks and rushing the gates...

I don't think its so far from the truth. Also when they show more china men attacking and destroying EVERYTHING that has to do with Japan.

 

[xechnao]

Actually I'm going to disagree with you here. The media here in Japan is not very censored. The reason why I say this is because here in Okinawa there are great amounts of tension and hate between a good portion of the islands inhabitants and the current American forces. The news though does not go on any biased side and reports both the good things and the bad side of the American forces. Also when they show live video feed of 10,000 + angry china men marching past the Japanese embassy and they are all throwing rocks and rushing the gates...

I don't think its so far from the truth. Also when they show more china men attacking and destroying EVERYTHING that has to do with Japan.

No need to disagree IMO. About American forces I believe it's natural the way it is, since this is about a part of Japan. I mean if media were biased in favor of Americans, japaneese would start a revolution over there if you see what I mean. On the other side, media can't be biased against Americans because things could get bad amongst the Japaneese goverment and America which is something that Japaneese goverment doesn't want. But Koizumi wants to stress and press China, his policy and position is very different than the one with America.
Besides if you read the article I linked for you thoroughly you will see about this better explained with the facts.

 

[Bok Choy]

I don't think its so far from the truth. Also when they show more china men attacking and destroying EVERYTHING that has to do with Japan.

You probably didn't mean it (probably Chinese men) but "Chinamen" is a pretty derogatory name for Chinese. Along the same lines as calling the Japanese "Japs".

And those Chinese asshats rioting don't really represent the majority of Chinese people. Yeah, the government is retarded for allowing the rioters to attack Japanese shopkeepers. There's no doubt that there's still a undercurrent of racism towards the Japanese within mainland China, but for the most part, it's not nearly as bad as it was during Mao's time. The anti-Japanese riots could only muster 10000 dumbasses among a population of one billion. Racism towards the Japanese is more prevalent among the older generations who still hold a grudge due to WWII while the younger generation still view Japan as a cultural mecca of the East.

For the record, China is only communist in name. When you see tons of American fast food restaurants and newly constructed malls a stone throw's away from Tiannamen Square or the fast-paced development in Shanghai (on par with Tokyo and Hong Kong), it ain't a communist society. Dictatorial but not totalitarian.

For Taiwan, there's a lot of sabre-rattling. Yes, the Chinese are intent on unifying the mainland and Taiwan, however, for the most part, the Chinese government isn't willing at this point to attack Taiwan. The government is notorious for making publicily inflammatory statements in order to secure every political point they can get. There was a lot of anti-American rhetoric during the spy plane incident and accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy (in Serbia), but that's died down much like this anti-Japanese BS is going to.

 

[ShinHell9]

And those Chinese asshats rioting don't really represent the majority of Chinese people. 

You just used asshats when referring to a political situation, you really don't view this as something important eh?

 

[Bok Choy]

You just used asshats when referring to a political situation, you really don't view this as something important eh?

How does my choice in vocabulary have any bearing on the seriousness of my post? Does it negate any of my points?

It's probably my time spent at Fark.com where the term "asshats" is used far too liberally to describe idiots of all stripes.

 

[xechnao]

You probably didn't mean it (probably Chinese men) but "Chinamen" is a pretty derogatory name for Chinese.  Along the same lines as calling the Japanese "Japs".

And those Chinese asshats rioting don't really represent the majority of Chinese people.  Yeah, the government is retarded for allowing the rioters to attack Japanese shopkeepers.  There's no doubt that there's still a undercurrent of racism towards the Japanese within mainland China, but for the most part, it's not nearly as bad as it was during Mao's time.  The anti-Japanese riots could only muster 10000 dumbasses among a population of one billion.  Racism towards the Japanese is more prevalent among the older generations who still hold a grudge due to WWII while the younger generation still view Japan as a cultural mecca of the East.

For the record, China is only communist in name.  When you see tons of American fast food restaurants and newly constructed malls a stone throw's away from Tiannamen Square or the fast-paced development in Shanghai (on par with Tokyo and Hong Kong), it ain't a communist society.  Dictatorial but not totalitarian.

For Taiwan, there's a lot of sabre-rattling.  Yes, the Chinese are intent on unifying the mainland and Taiwan, however, for the most part, the Chinese government isn't willing at this point to attack Taiwan.  The government is notorious for making publicily inflammatory statements in order to secure every political point they can get.  There was a lot of anti-American rhetoric during the spy plane incident and accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy (in Serbia), but that's died down much like this anti-Japanese BS is going to.

Agreed.
But allow me to state that japaneese neither do remain back on this kind of stuff.  Japaneese have been worse that that, if you ask me. 


PS: And now some real news on the matter:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=9&u=/ap/20050412/ap_on_re_as/china_japan

 

[SaiyajinNoOuji]

Yea I agree with you. The older generations for both sides are the ones cause a majority of the problems... like one of my favorite songs from KMFDM sing...

"The ignorent elder empowers the youth".


let me them duke it out (Older genderation)

Hopefully though if cooler heads prevale, just wait out till the older generation dies out and hope for the best.

 

[Griffith]

You just used asshats when referring to a political situation, you really don't view this as something important eh?

More fodder for the bathroom wall.

How does my choice in vocabulary have any bearing on the seriousness of my post? Does it negate any of my points? 

It's probably my time spent at Fark.com where the term "asshats" is used far too liberally to describe idiots of all stripes.

But substance doesn't matter, it's all about style! If you try desperately to sound wise, it doesn't matter that you're completly full of shit! You obviously don't take talking on the Internet seriously. What a Dickensian dilemia!

 

[Aazealh]

You probably didn't mean it (probably Chinese men) but "Chinamen" is a pretty derogatory name for Chinese.  Along the same lines as calling the Japanese "Japs".

Yeah, you fucking yankees. ;D

For the record, China is only communist in name.

As has been any regime to ever call itself "communist", despite the large misuse of the term... For the record, there's no C in USSR. Reminds me that every dictatorship is "the Free Citizens' Republican Democracy of <insert name>".

 

[Lliugusamui]

GNMore, you told me to come here for bathroom, but i see your posts are still made of the same talk and show useless prose. May i use them to relieve myself ?
Your friend oversea :)